School Improvement Episode 61: Play spaces with Dr Fatemeh Aminpour

Hello and thanks for listening to this podcast from Teacher – I’m Jo Earp and I’ll be your host for this episode of School Improvement. 

For students, a sizeable chunk of their school day is spent at lunch and recess, in the playground and recreation spaces, and outdoor learning areas. So, on this episode I’m joined by Dr Fatemeh Aminpour, who is a Research Fellow at the City Futures Research Centre at the University of New South Wales (that’s UNSW Sydney). We’ll be looking at this from the students’ perspective – talking about what works well for children in different situations and how schools can look at those small incremental changes to make better use of what they’ve got. Let’s get started.

Jo Earp: Hi Fatemeh, thank you very much for joining me today. We're going to be talking about school playgrounds, not just playgrounds, but other recreation spaces in schools as well. We're going to look at some of the research recommendations that are out there and have a think about how teachers and leaders that are listening can start to have a think about what it might look like in their own context, because obviously context is key. Now, just in terms of you, you've got a background in architecture and the work that you do at UNSW that's in something called ‘environment behaviour research and inclusive design’, which sounds very interesting. Tell me a bit about that and also how that applies to children and schools.

Fatemeh Aminpour: Hi Jo, thanks for having me today. And as you said, my work sits in environment behaviour research, which looks at the relationship between people and the spaces they use. It's about understanding not just how we design buildings and public spaces, but how people actually move through, interact with, and fill in those spaces. A big part of my work is inclusive design, and that means designing environments that work for the full diversity of users, including people with disabilities, neurodivergent children, and others whose needs are often overlooked in mainstream design. So, it's not just about meeting accessibility codes, it's about thinking more deeply about sensory comfort, safety, social inclusion, and opportunities for participation. 

And when we apply that to schools we're looking at playgrounds, outdoor learning areas and recreation spaces as environments that can either enable or limit children's engagement. So, in the school context environment behaviour research helps us identify what works well for children in different situations and inclusive design gives us the framework to make sure those benefits are available to all children, not just to those who fit a typical profile.

JE: Yeah, it sounds like a great area to be involved in and really looking forward to the chat today. So, let's zoom out for a minute then; let's consider the bigger question of ‘why is this important to me as an educator?’ I mean, apart from the obvious that, you know, lunchtime and recess (and those outdoor learning opportunities, but lunchtime and recess) make up quite a sizeable chunk of a student's school day. It's not just a place to play, is it? There's a there's an awful lot going on there in terms of you've got the physical health aspect, you've got things like inclusivity, as you mentioned there, there’s sense of belonging (we know that's important), there are those chances to be still and calm, not just running around, there's relationship building, there's play-based learning – a whole range of skills isn't there?

FA: Absolutely. You know, as you said, playgrounds and recreational spaces are so much more than somewhere to burn off energy, they're actually a real powerful part of a child's learning environment. Yes, they support physical health, but they also shape social skills, confidence, emotional wellbeing – and many of these happen in the context of what we call ‘self-directed play’. You know, when children play on their own, they learn to solve problems, make decisions and basically explore the world around themselves. So, self-directed play is especially valuable when it allows them to discover things for themselves without the pressure or worrying about making mistakes or failing.

So, for many children these are the spaces where friendship forms; you know, where they learn how to negotiate share and collaborate. For others they are a refuge, a place to feel calm, regulate emotions, recharge before going back into the classroom – and that's especially important for children who might find the school day quite overwhelming. And as you pointed out, when playgrounds are designed with inclusivity in mind, they send a strong message, you know – you belong here. It creates a culture where difference is normal, and everyone has opportunities to participate and contribute. 

So, for educators, investing into these spaces is about supporting the whole child – their physical, social, emotional and cognitive development – and making sure that the learning that happens outside the classroom is just as intentional and important as the learning that happens inside.

JE: So, it's an important listen this episode. When we talk about investment there, of course, there might be some instances where you're looking to purchase something or put particular equipment in, and if you're lucky enough to be designing a space, obviously that's great too. But, you know, there's investment in terms of just having to think about that and reflecting on that and making it the best space that it can be. A lot to talk about then – when we're not going to cover everything today, that would be impossible, but let's just see where the conversation goes. And as I say, listeners can start thinking about how this then relates to their own context.

I want to start with that word ‘space’ then, or lack of it really. I'm talking about those sites where space is really at a premium. That includes sort of new things like vertical schools. Maybe you've got lots of things going on in one space because it's a bit of a tight squeeze. So, you've got maybe some fixed equipment in there, some seated areas, some different ball games and they're all running into each other; it's a bit of chaos really. We could just say, ‘oh, well, this goes back to the design’ but what about those listeners who are really having to work with what's available – what would your tips be in this area to start with then, lack of space?

FA: Yeah, absolutely. You know, space constraints are a reality for many schools, and especially in urban areas and vertical campuses. I found that grass areas often become a real hotspot for conflict. You'll have some children who just want to sit on the soft grass, chat with friends and watch what's going on around them, and at the same time others are using that same space to practise gymnastics (you know, cartwheels, handstands) while others are playing bull rush or a variety of ball games. And all of this is happening in the same patch. So, you can imagine the occasional collision or, you know, a stray ball hitting someone in the head. While we can't always change the footprint, we can be intentional about how the space is organised and managed, and one simple strategy is to make better use of the spaces we already have to spread activities out a bit.

You know, a good example is covered outdoor learning areas – at many schools these are just paved with asphalt, which can get freezing cold in winter and there is often no seating, you know, ball games are usually banned in these areas, but in their current state they're not great for quiet games or seated activities either. So, if you add soft surfaces and a few comfortable spots to sit, suddenly these spaces become perfect for calmer seated play and social interaction. It's a small change, but it can really help take the pressure off the main play areas.

Another approach is to look at the resources we already have and see if we can free up more staff to supervise the students in some of those smaller often overlooked courtyards around the school. You know, these spaces might not seem like much, but one reason the main play areas get so crowded is because some perfectly usable spots are marked out of bounds, usually because they can't be seen from where staff are stationed. So, if we put a bit of value on these leftover spaces and make them accessible, they can become really useful retreat spaces, especially for children who want a quieter spot to spend their break. 

So, sometimes it's not about creating brand new play zones, it's about unlocking the potential of the spaces we already have.

JE: What about something like a rota or, you know, like if you've got a space where there's just loads going on – there's like 3 competing games of football or whatever it may be. Is it worth looking at something like that, staggering play space-time, could that help?

FA: Yeah, yeah, of course. I observe that happens in some of those schools and it's really helpful to spread out activities and different types of play.

JE: So, some things to think about in terms of making the best use of what you've got. And that's an interesting point about those little spaces that maybe you've ruled out. Of course, it does all come down to whether you've got staffing and whether you've got people who can do that. So, there is that investment on that side of things. But then the flip side is you're getting less arguments and things, aren't you, because you're taking that strain away. OK, let's move on. We've kind of touched on this already because it's an important part of the conversation – let's move on to access and inclusivity. Again, there's a lot of things for schools to be thinking about – you mentioned some of those earlier on about, you know disability access, neurodivergence, but I'm also thinking gender inequity...

FA: Yeah, yeah. You know, school grounds really need to offer enough variety of spaces to meet all sorts of needs. And in smaller spaces it's easy for one or 2 main activities to take over, and that can leave out children who either aren't interested or can't really join in. I often see older children, particularly boys, dominating the main play areas and that means more sensitive children, usually younger girls, end up retreating to the edges or, you know, to the corners of the school grounds to avoid those rougher games.

So, what my research shows is that we don't necessarily need more space to fix this, we need more variety. And by introducing multiuse flexible elements like loose play parts and natural features we can create spaces for imaginative play – like quiet retreats or socialising – that don't get in the way of the more active games. And interestingly, the kinds of activities that happen around nature and loose parts tend to be compatible with each other, regardless of a children's age and gender and abilities, so there is much less chance of conflict.

We also need to think about spaces for emotion regulation, places where children can recharge. And research shows that some children, especially those with sensory sensitivities, they really benefit from being able to step away and rest for a minute. And even in tight school grounds, small microenvironments can make a huge difference. Things like a shaded bench, you know, a planter in the corner, or a little semi-screened seating nook.

So, the important shift is to see the playground as a network of experiences rather than one big activity zone; and even when space is limited, a mix of active areas, social sports and calm retreats. It means that you're supporting many more children’s needs and actually support that kind of diversity.

JE: By the way I'll put links to relevant research in the transcript of this podcast over at teachermagazine.com. From the observations that you've done then, what about those children who would like to take part in, not the rougher games, but the more boisterous games, you know, there might actually be an organised game going on, but they're quite shy. Does that kind of thing happen where they kind of get left out because of that? I guess that's more like a social thing, but, you know, that's obviously making sure that people are able to take full advantage of the play area. Is there something that, as educators, we could be thinking of or doing a little bit differently?

FA: Yeah, actually it can be done differently. If we can support those passive play areas around those active play areas, children can actually dip their toes into that area and just feel the environment and see if they want to be engaged in that kind of play. So, there is a connection, offering a connection of those passive play areas and active play areas can help those who are shy to get into those active zones a bit more.

What a great idea – introducing students to those play areas slowly and giving them opportunities to dip their toes in. You’re listening to a podcast from Teacher and we’ll be back for more of my chat with Dr Fatemeh Aminpour shortly, but if you’ve just discovered our podcasts and Teacher magazine, I want to let you know about the additional free content on the teachermagazine.com website to support your practice. You’ll find more than 3,000 articles, infographics, videos and podcasts in the archive – they’re all online and open access. And it’s where you can sign up to our regular bulletin to get the latest content and trending topics, delivered straight to your inbox. We publish fresh content throughout the week; access everything and sign up to the bulletin at teachermagazine.com.

JE: So, as with all the content at Teacher, then, we want educators to think about their own context. As I say, context is key in everything really. Some of you listening have probably already started to picture what you have in your own school and what some of those changes and small improvements could look like. And it can be something really small and deliberate to start with, as we've been mentioning, some incremental improvements really. Fatemeh, one of the things that comes through strongly in your own research, reading some of those papers, is the perspective of children themselves. So, whether you're thinking about starting to design a new space at your school, or perhaps more likely you're looking to make improvements, it's important to go to the people who are going to use it, isn't it?

FA: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. You know, children are the real experts in how the playgrounds and recreation spaces work day-to-day. And when you take the time to listen to children, you often uncover needs and ideas that adults might never think of. You know, they can tell you not only what they enjoy, but also what they avoid and what feels uncomfortable or what's missing, and they share this feedback very generously and without a filter. They're often far more competent in expressing themselves than we expect, and they tell you exactly what works for them, which is what makes their insights so valuable.

And it doesn't need to be a complicated process, you know, it can be a short class discussion or even better a playground walk where children point out things they like and things they would change. And these conversations can reveal the small, deliberate changes that have a big impact. Like, you know, adding seats along the well-used edges, or opening up a quiet retreat that's currently out of bounds, or replacing asphalt with something softer, like for example grass, in some corners where they like to sit and play card games.

So, it's important to involve children in the process and it gives them a sense of ownership, you know. When they see their ideas are being implemented, they're more likely to use this space in positive ways and they would look after the place better. It also sends a really powerful message that their voices matter, which is a valuable lesson in itself.

JE: That's a great tip, that – going on an actual walk of the playground, I've not heard of that before; and kind of stands to reason, doesn't it, if you’re asked to kind of picture something and respond to something it's quite hard trying to get it in your mind and go through every single thing. You really want to be there, so you know either observing some things as it's taking place, but like you say better go for a bit of a walk or a trip through the playground. OK then, one of your studies looks at natural settings – thinking about trees, the types of plants that already exist, things like birds and butterflies that might be attracted to the space. What kind of things have you seen in those studies as sort of takeaways from the kids themselves?

FA: One of my studies looked at this, and we know children already they want more greenery at the school, but my research shows it's not just about planting more trees, it's about the right plants in the right places. So, in my research I looked at the kinds of plants children actually use and enjoy, and it turns out that texture and structure matter a lot.

You know, they love natural features they can interact with – like trees with reachable limbs, soft trunks, or trees with roots they can balance on – because these spark imagination, and they can develop their motor skills, and these offer rich sensory experiences children enjoy. And children love hands-on interaction with nature through their bodies and senses. But the challenge is balancing access with care – fencing plants off removes that benefit but leaving them unprotected can lead to damage. I found solutions like planting robust species, you know, placing greenery along the edges or away from the main footpath and planning for durability at the design stage. That way natural settings remain both inviting for children and also well maintained over time. 

They really liked to carve trees with some soft trunks, and they would love to collect those and use them in their imaginative play …. and they love hiding behind bushes and they use tree trunks as hiding spots as well. So, it's also connected to the point that I raised about placing those trees along the edges, because along the edges they can be used as hiding spots better than … because it doesn't interrupt the other play activities going around the school.

JE: That's interesting that they like to interact with the nature and the birds and you know, they do think about that kind of thing, and it adds to the whole experience and the butterflies and things. So, it’s good to have a read-up on the types of plants which are, you know, which are safe and that are going to attract wildlife as well.

FA: Yeah. And they like colourful flowers, as they said they shine out to the school. And you know, I mentioned earlier about care and maintenance – they like plants to be well maintained. So, you know, while they want to manipulate some plants, they also want them to be taken care of.

JE: I want to return to something we mentioned earlier then, before we finish up. Like I say, unfortunately we haven't been able to touch on everything, but we've had an interesting discussion about a few things that will get people thinking. Points of conflict in play spaces. Again, let's look at this from a child's perspective then. If you're a teacher, you'll definitely know listening to this that lunch and recess are a time when those arguments can arise. Yes, there's certainly work that we can do there in terms of social skills, but what about actual layout? Is there anything sort of practically, takeaways just before we finish, that could stop those little niggles arising to start with?

FA: Yeah, you know, as we briefly mentioned earlier, one of the main challenges is overlapping activities that cause conflicts and especially when ball games spill into quieter areas. Some children want refuge in the playground, and they end up avoiding this space altogether, mainly because of noise and overcrowding.

One solution I came across – and it actually goes back to what I just mentioned about the position of plants – is having trees and bushes along the edges of grass areas which are often hotspots for conflict in school grounds. You know, this helps create quieter zones where children can enjoy imaginative play or practise gymnastics without the risk of getting hit by stray balls. Other examples of physical barriers that can be easily introduced by educators are, you know, furniture and planters – these DIY solutions can create subspaces within the playground that reduce conflict between activities that are not compatible with each other. 

It's also really interesting to see how children show agency and develop their own strategies to avoid conflict. My research shows that they often don't use pathways the way that we expect them to. Instead, you know, they try to dodge crowds, and they still find spots to keep playing along the way. Sometimes that means they end up in out of bound areas or running on concrete where running is usually not allowed, and mainly because they want their running games to keep going smoothly without interruptions, but the way schools are laid out doesn't always make that easy. It's important for us to understand how children actually read their environment and what they see as good places to play.

And of course, designers have a big role here, making sure play spaces connect well so they aren't hidden or off limits spots children feel pushed into, but also zoning different activities so there is less chance of children bumping into each other. So, it's really about finding that balance between connection and separation to make play safe and fun for everyone.

JE: Oh, that's something to think about as well, isn't it? And just seeing what that natural flow is. And rather than just, you know, rather than saying ‘no, don't do that’, perhaps dig into why, why they're going onto that space. We've seen, you know, that they'll go off onto a different route and create a whole new pathway that’s just a natural pathway but over time it will become quite a well-trodden pathway and, like you said, there's often a good reason for that, isn't there. So, I think, you know, we're coming back to children's voices. 

Well, that's been that's been fantastic. Thank you so much for joining us today. I've really enjoyed the chat. As I say, I'll put the links into those papers and related reading in the transcript. But Fatemeh, thanks very much for your expertise today.

FA: Thank you very much Jo for having me, I also enjoyed this conversation a lot.

That’s all for this episode, I hope you enjoyed that as much as I did. I really love that idea of a tour through the playground and outdoor spaces with your students so that they can point out thigs and give feedback as they go along, that’s such a great idea. And again, (from the first part of the conversation) having those opportunities for students who are perhaps less confident to dip their toes into different spaces by having some kind of crossover – great advice. I also want to quickly mention another companion piece (would you call it?) podcast from Teacher where Dominique Russell spoke to Associate Professor Brendon Hyndman about setting up for healthy play behaviours at school – that’s Episode 14 of our Behaviour Management series. Thanks for listening. Hit the follow button to make sure you don’t miss out on new episodes, and please leave a rating or a review, it helps other people to find the podcast and it’s a really big support for all the team here at Teacher. Bye!

References and related reading

Aminpour, F. (2021). The physical characteristics of children’s preferred natural settings in Australian primary school grounds. Urban Forestry & Urban Greening, 62, 127163. https://doi.org/10.1016/j.ufug.2021.127163 

Aminpour, F. (2022). From the child's perspective: How the layout of outdoor school environments shapes conflict between children's self-directed play. Journal of Environmental Psychology, 79, 101727. https://doi.org/10.1016/j.jenvp.2021.101727

Aminpour, F. (2022, January 5). Recess is a time of conflict for children. Here are 6 school design tips to keep the peace. The Conversation. https://theconversation.com/recess-is-a-time-of-conflict-for-children-here-are-6-school-design-tips-to-keep-the-peace-173140

Aminpour, F., & Bishop, K. (2021). Children's preferences on the move: Establishing the characteristics of unofficial paths and their benefits for children's physical play in Australian primary school grounds. Journal of Environmental Psychology, 75, 101599. https://doi.org/10.1016/j.jenvp.2021.101599

Aminpour, F., Bishop, K., & Corkery, L. (2020). The hidden value of in-between spaces for children’s self-directed play within outdoor school environments. Landscape and Urban Planning, 194, 103683. https://doi.org/10.1016/j.landurbplan.2019.103683