Before we begin this episode, a warning that this podcast discusses suicide and mental health. If you or anyone you know needs help, in Australia you can call Lifeline on 13 11 14.
Hello and thanks for listening to this podcast from Teacher – I’m Jo Earp. R U OK? Day is an annual national day of action, held on the second Thursday in September, that reminds Australians to check in with others and ask, ‘are you OK?’ My guest for this special episode is Dr Hannah Brown – Education and Young People Manager at R U OK? A little bit different for this episode in that we won’t be looking at classroom practice, or leadership practice, or specifically what’s happening in schools. For the next 20 minutes we’ll be talking about some of the signs that it might be time to have the conversation and the process of getting ready to ask. Importantly, we’ll be going through the 4 simple steps – ask, listen, encourage action and check in – and discussing some of the support services and resources that are available. So, let’s get started.
Jo Earp: Hi, Hannah. Thank you so much for joining Teacher today for this special podcast on R U OK? Day. Now, R U OK? that's a national charity, of course – but I'm interested, what are its broad aims then, and what is the significance of R U OK? Day?
Hannah Brown: Yeah. So, first of all, thank you so much for having me on the podcast. R U OK? is a national suicide prevention charity that encourages people to stay connected and have conversations that can help others going through difficult times. So, our work focuses on building the motivation, the confidence and the skills of the help giver – so, this is the person who can then have meaningful conversations with someone who's struggling with life.
R U OK? was founded back in 2009 by the late Gavin Larkin, after Gav tragically lost his own father to suicide. And after losing his father Gav often wondered, as many impacted by suicide often do, ‘what more could I have done?’, ‘how can we support the community to act when they notice someone isn't quite themselves?’ And it was from Gavin's lived experience and his belief that a conversation really could change your life. And, what's interesting is that Gavin wasn't a psychologist or a counsellor. In fact, he didn't work in the mental health space at all, he worked in marketing and advertising. But he wanted to create something that any Australian could be involved in and empowered by. You know, you don't have to have any qualifications to ask someone if they're OK and it doesn't cost anything to ask the question. And the very first, R U OK? Day actually consisted of Gavin and his close family and friends sitting around his kitchen table having a cup of tea and checking in on each other, as well as sharing some memories of Gav's father.
And while Gavin unfortunately passed away in 2011, only 2 years after starting R U OK?
his legacy lives on in the work that we do as a team, but also in the wider community as we see schools holding yellow mufti days, workplaces coming together for morning teas and a chat, as well as fundraising events held throughout the year. So, R U OK? is truly a community-owned conversation movement.
JE: Yeah, and as you say there is that national day of action – which happens to be today – and that's great that we can do the podcast today and that's certainly good for raising awareness, and it gives that day of action. But there's also, you know, if you look on the site and the work that you do, there's a very strong emphasis there on asking ‘are you OK?’ any day. Your research found that those who are regularly asked ‘are you OK?’ report increased feelings of wellbeing, don't they?
HB: Yeah, absolutely. So, we decided to go with the messaging of ask ‘are you OK?’ any day last year and that will be our messaging going forward; because, as you said, our research found that those who are regularly asked ‘are you OK?’ report increased feelings of wellbeing. And we've learned that one third of Australians say that they've been asking others more often over the past year. So, that means many of us are already showing up for others in meaningful ways. But, when it comes to conversations about how we're really going, some people are less confident than others. And it's definitely natural to feel a little hesitant, but the good news is that 9 in 10 Australians report feeling grateful, supported and cared for when someone genuinely asks them if they're OK. So that's a good enough reason to give it a go.
JE: Yeah, absolutely. So, it's not really a one day thing and then forget and we'll talk a bit later about one of the steps being check in (we'll get to that a bit later). The charity's working to inspire and empower people to connect with those around them then, but in a meaningful way. And, as we've said, have those conversations regularly. It can be a difficult thing to start though, can't it? If you’re maybe lacking a little bit of confidence thinking ‘am I the right person for this?’ for a start.
HB: Yeah, absolutely, because it's still not something that we talk openly enough about. So, we've certainly come a long way as a nation when it comes to opening up about mental health, but unfortunately that stigma still exists. And a recent report of young people in Australia actually found that while most young people are very much aware of mental health and conditions like depression and anxiety, it's the stigma of appearing weak or vulnerable that's still preventing young people from reaching out and seeking support. So, that's why it's so important that all of us reach out to our loved ones, colleagues, neighbours, any day of the year because just that conversation can truly change your life.
JE: But you don't have to be an expert do you – we're not looking for, you know, somebody who's the qualified person in a school or a workplace or wherever.
HB: Absolutely – don't have to be an expert, don't have to have the qualifications because anyone can ask that question and you don't have to solve their problems.
JE: So, when it comes to asking ‘are you OK?’ I thought that's what we could focus on in this episode because it's super important and we'll give people some pointers there and some further tools. There are 4 simple steps then: there's ask, listen, encourage action and check in. There's also a bit that needs some thought before that, though, isn't there, and that is the thing of getting ready to actually ask.
HB: Yep, absolutely. So, before you ask, it's really important that you check in with yourself first and if you're not in the right headspace to have the conversation, that's completely fine; we all have our bad days, but I really recommend that if that is the case that you bring someone else in. So, you could say something like, you know, ‘I've noticed that Sam's acting a bit differently, they haven't been responding to my text messages, but I'm not in the right headspace to check in on them today. Do you mind checking in on them?’
If you are in the right headspace and you feel ready to have the conversation, then just put some thought into the time and place of where that conversation will take place. So, ask when you have the time to listen – you know, you're not rushing off to go to class or you're not rushing off to go to an appointment, you genuinely have the time to sit and listen to them.
And a lot of people say that they actually find it easier to have these conversations when they're walking next to someone, you know, they're going for a walk or getting a coffee together, a walk and talk, rather than sitting directly across from them. Or even going for a drive – a lot of parents say that, you know, if they want to have a chat with one of their children they'll take them for a drive, it's just a bit easier that way. But whichever way that you do ask, just make sure that you do it in a way that makes you and the person you're checking in on feel comfortable, because there's no one right way to do it.
JE: So, starting the conversation then – so assuming that we're in in the right space ourselves and you know we've thought about time and place and we've given ourselves enough space to have that conversation – the first step then is actually just asking. What might that look and sound like?
HB: So, it's important that you ask in your way. Ask in a way that's genuine and take it seriously. You know, don't make a joke out of it. Because I often, on R U OK? Day I'll be in schools or workplaces, or events and, you know, I always hear people asking, ‘oh, are you OK?’ and having a bit of a laugh and it's become a bit of a joke. But it's so important to just take a step back, take it seriously, otherwise people won't confide in you, you know, if they don't see you as a supportive person that they can talk to that's quite a negative thing. So, you don't obviously have to use the words ‘are you OK?’ – you can ask in any way that feels natural to you.
But one way that I like to do it is, it's something called the ‘notice-ask’ model. So, you can say something like, ‘hey, I've noticed that … you've been turning up a little bit late to work this week and that's just not like you. I just want to check in, is everything OK?’ or ‘hey, I've noticed that you haven't been replying to my text messages. Just wanted to check in’. So, again, that can make the conversation a little bit easier to start.
JE: Yeah, it's a good tip. Before we go on to step 2, though, I just want to expand on something that you've just said there about mentioning things and behaviours that maybe might have concerned you or risen some issues for you thinking about [your] concern for the person. R U OK? talks about recognising some of the signs that it's time to ask – so, things the person saying, doing or what's happening in their life. Can you give a few examples of those?
HB: Yeah, absolutely. So, the first is, what are they saying? And this is really just, it's usually a negative way of talking that's quite out of character for the person. So, they might be saying things like ‘I feel like a burden’ or ‘what's the point of doing that, I feel hopeless’. Just talking in quite a negative way that is just out of character for them.
The second is what are they doing – and, again, this really depends on the person and it's just any behaviour that's outside of their normal behaviour. And if this is someone that you work with, you know you're with them most days, usually from 9 to 5, you know them quite well. So, you might be able to pick up on things like if they're, you know, they're normally quite extroverted, but lately they've really been keeping to themselves. Or it could even go the other way – usually they're quiet, but lately they've been going out every night. They've been drinking every night, you know, they might be posting things on social media. Just anything that's a little bit out of character could be a sign to check in.
And the 3rd is what's going on in their world. So, we all, as I said, we all have ups and downs in life, but there are some big situations like relationship breakdown is a huge risk factor for poor mental health and for suicide, losing your job, having financial stress, moving house, illness in the family. So, if you do know that a loved one or a colleague or someone in your world is going through something big like this, again, that could be an opportunity to check in on how they're going.
But I do think it's important to recognise here that sometimes the person who is struggling can be wearing a mask and they have that mask on so tight that there are no signs. So, you know, because they don't, you know … they're holding on to, you know, they're really burying their feelings deep down, they're pushing them down. So obviously, it's no one's fault if that person does die by suicide, because sometimes they're just, there are no signs.
JE: Yeah. Step 2 is listen and, in addition to that, do that with an open mind.
HB: Yeah. So, a lot of the time when I talk about the listen step, I can kind of see people going, you know, ‘this is very simple. I know how to do this’, which is great because you know, we want it to be as simple as possible; but it can actually be a bit challenging to be a good listener.
So, I really encourage everyone – you know … they don't have to be having an ‘are you OK?’ conversation, they could just be having any conversation – to try to listen to understand not to respond. Because a lot of us are guilty of that of actually not concentrating on what the other person's saying because we're thinking of what we want to say next. So, try to just listen to understand. Don't interrupt them. Give them the time – so, try not to jump in. Don't tell them what to do.
And also practise just sitting in silence because this might be the first time that someone's asked them if they're OK and they might find it a little bit challenging to open up. So just sit with them, don't rush them. You can have, you know, prompts saying, ‘OK, well, tell me more about that’ or ‘you mentioned that you were feeling a little bit angry about that, describe that for me, let me know what you're going through’.
JE: Yeah. Again, that's interesting that sitting with silence. I'm thinking if you're giving the person time to respond, again, that's against this backdrop of you being concerned in the first place for their welfare, and that can be really difficult, can't it, allowing that silence, but it's so crucial, isn't it?
HB: Absolutely. And I really do think it's human nature for us to want to jump in because we want to try to solve their problems, especially when we're talking to our loved ones. These are people that we really care about and we want to fix things for them. But that's why it's so important to remember that it's not our job to fix things, especially at this stage of the conversation, we just need to give them time to speak and just hear them and sit with them.
And it's interesting our CEO at R U OK? used to be a Lifeline phone volunteer and she said that the majority of the calls that she took were people who just wanted someone to listen to them, not actually solve any of the issues.
JE: That's interesting. OK then, we've had, as I said, there are 4 steps – we've had Step 1 ask, and then Step 2 listen, and do that with an open mind. Step 3 is about encouraging action. What kind of things could we be saying or doing in this step, then?
HB: I think the first thing a lot of people find helpful to ask is ‘what can I do to support you?’ So, again, you're not telling them what to do, you're asking them. You can also ask if they felt like this before – so you say ‘you know, you mentioned that you felt like this about a year ago. What helped you then or what did you do last time that you found helpful?’ Again, it's not about telling them what to do, but you can always provide suggestions such as, you know, ‘have you thought of going to your GP?’ or ‘what about calling your works’ Employee Assistance Program’ or even ‘calling a support phone line like Lifeline’ – and that's something that you can do together, you know, while you're sitting with them.
So, really, it's about not telling them what to do, asking them how you can help, and just sitting with them to support them.
JE: At this point in the conversation, then, they may need expert help. They may really need that professional help, and it's not something that as a colleague or as a friend or family member that you can take on, on your own.
HB: Yeah, definitely. And so that's why it is important to keep in mind that, you know, when the conversation is too big, there are many support services that you can point that person to. But it's also important to remember that, as a helper, you can access those services too. So, services are not just for those who are struggling or in crisis, but you can actually call them to get advice, including, you know, some next steps or just to talk to someone about what you're experiencing and feeling about the situation.
So, Lifeline is a great example 13 11 14; 24/7 support and as I said, you can call them. You don't have to be in distress. You might just need some advice about how to help a friend. They also have a really good text line, so you don't even have to talk on the phone, you can text, as well as the web chat service as well. But yeah, there's others, there's Beyond Blue, there’s 13 YARN – there's quite a few out there. So, yeah, really important to keep those ones in mind.
JE: Yeah. And as we said, it may be that if we're saying, you know ‘is there something that's helped in the past for you?’ it may be that that person's already engaged with professional help?
HB: Yeah, definitely, so they might be seeing a counsellor or a psychologist, and it could even just be a little gentle push to, you know, ‘maybe you might want to make another appointment with them’ … or Beyond Blue have a really great app called the Beyond Now app, so it could even just be talking about that because they can make a safety plan in the app. Yeah, so that's another great idea as well.
JE: So, we've had 3 steps – Step 4 then, the last of the steps, that's checking in and that's important too, isn't it?
HB: It is. I actually think it's one of the most important steps, but I think it's probably the most forgotten. It's important because it shows that you're there to support them long term, so it's not just a one-off conversation, you're there for the long haul. It also shows that there's no judgement, because I don't know about you but I've definitely shared things with people in the past about how I'm feeling or things I was going through and then I haven't heard from that person for a while and I've kind of panicked and gone ‘Oh God, what if they're judging me now? What if they don't want to talk to me anymore because of what I've shared with them?’ So, even just, you know, checking in a day or 2 later, or a week later, just really shows, again, there's no judgement, you're there to support them long term, it's not just a one-off conversation.
JE: And as we say, that brings us back to, you know, checking ‘are you OK?’ any day, doesn't it. So, I want to take a moment to talk about the resources that are available to support people having that conversation then, and also workplaces, and in the community – there's loads of things that you've got on the site, isn’t there?
HB: Yes, we have a lot. So, R U OK? – we have a huge range of resources on our website that are all completely free. So, we have conversation manuals for different population groups including older Australians, emergency service workers with our ‘Are they Triple OK?’ campaign, young people, Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people. We have workplace resources, as you mentioned – so, they include posters and role play videos.
And we also have a Chit Chat Channel, which I think is really amazing because it's real people sharing their real stories of lived experience. Because, a lot of the time, when we're talking to people, that's what they find most valuable, is hearing from people like them who have gone through something similar so they can think, ‘OK, I'm actually not alone in going through these things.’ So yeah, I really recommend the listeners to check out the website because there's lots on there.
JE: And for our particular audience, then, which is K-12 teachers and leaders, there are also some great educator resources on there, aren’t there? We haven't talked specifically about supporting students, but you've got some great educator resources on there as well.
HB: Yeah, we do, and I feel particularly proud of these ones as the Education Manager because these are all my responsibility. But yeah, all of our resources have been co-designed with the experts – teachers – they're all age appropriate. Our resources focus on kindness for younger people, checking in on each other and being good friends. I really encourage teachers to use the resources and activities throughout the year. So, you know, if you put the posters up in September, leave them up, just as a reminder that R U OK? Day, yes, it is our national day of action but you can be doing these activities throughout the year.
We also have early education resources, which we started for the first time last year. So, we now go from early education all the way up to tertiary, so university and TAFE. And, as I mentioned, a lot of these resources and activities for education that we now have on our website are intended to be used throughout the year. So, we have an art competition this year for year 7 and year 8 students that closes after R U OK? Day, because again it's getting that message into the schools that it's more than one day.
JE: Yeah, all of those resources then that we've been talking about today, all the support links – and you know you've mentioned a few there, Lifeline, Beyond Blue and so on, the various apps and chat lines and all sorts available – all the support links are on the website too. The 4 steps that we've talked about today, that's on the R U OK website, head to ruok.org.au. Hannah, thanks so much for your expert input today. Final message from you?
HB: I think my final message is that if someone popped into your head during this episode – so maybe it was a friend who you haven't heard from in a while or a work colleague who's going through a relationship breakdown – I encourage you to reach out to them and check in.
And if you have been struggling yourself, then this is your sign to please reach out to someone and seek support. You're not alone in what you're going through.
Thanks for listening, that’s all for this episode. If you found this one useful, please take a quick moment to hit follow on your podcast app (if you haven’t already) and leave us a review. Both of those things help more people like you to find our podcast and they’re a really big support to the Teacher team, so thanks for that. We’ll be back with a new episode very soon.
