Teacher podcast: Addressing religion and beliefs in diverse classrooms

Hello, Teacher deputy editor Rebecca Vukovic here, and I'll be your host for today. But before we get into this episode, a reminder to hit the follow button to make sure you stay up to date with the latest content. And please leave a review – it helps people like you to find the podcast, and it's a big support for the team. 

Hello and thanks for listening to this podcast from Teacher magazine. I'm Rebecca Vukovic. 

It is important that teachers feel confident to respectfully and effectively address religion and beliefs in diverse classrooms. But it can be difficult, particularly for early career or beginner teachers, to know where to start. Recently, Informit – in partnership with RMIT University and the Australian Council for Educational Research – held a free professional development webinar on this very topic. In that webinar, ACER's very own Pru Mitchell, Manager of Information Services, interviewed Professor Peter Sherlock, Executive Director of the Australian Centre for Christianity and Culture at Charles Sturt University. In today's podcast, I sit down with Peter to follow up on some of the key themes to come from that webinar. In particular, we discuss why it's important for schools to engage with religion and belief systems, how teachers can engage students in meaningful conversations about religion in a respectful way, and the resources available to help teachers to build their confidence in this space. Let's jump in. 

Rebecca Vukovic: Professor Peter Sherlock, thanks for joining me today. I'm really excited to get into this conversation. To start off, can you tell our listeners a little bit about your career and how you came to be in your current role now at Charles Sturt University?

Peter Sherlock: Thanks, Rebecca. I trained originally as an historian at Melbourne University and at the University of Oxford in the UK. So, at heart, I'm actually a 16th and 17th Century European historian, which may sound a long way away from some of what we talk about today. And then for about 16 years, I worked in Australia in the world of theological education. So, part of that was helping train people who were becoming religious ministers or priests or pastors, but also religious education teachers and, of course, helping people do research about faith and its place in the modern and future world. 

I finished up a senior role; I was Vice Chancellor of the University of Divinity until March last year. And I'd done long enough and was looking for the next thing. And the next thing turned out to be this really interesting role I have at Charles Sturt University working with the journalist and theologian and philosopher Stan Grant, who is a well-known Wiradjuri man and public figure. And we're working on a really ambitious project to try and improve the quality of civil conversation and dialogue in Australia and internationally, particularly with an eye towards First Nations peoples’ justice and equity and issues around reconciliation. So, it's a real passion project and a privilege to be doing this role.

And then just in the last few months, I've also got a role working as Executive Director of the Australian Centre for Christianity and Culture at Charles Sturt University. So, I think you can probably see some of the alignment there in the roles that I’ve had.

RV: Yeah, it sounds like you've had such an exciting and varied career there, Peter. Thanks for sharing that. Now, we're here today to talk about addressing religion and beliefs in diverse classrooms. I thought we could start with a really big question and then afterwards we can delve into some of those more practical strategies for teachers listening. So, with the current state of the world front of mind, why do you think it's important for schools to engage with religion and belief systems?

PS: For me, there's 2 critical reasons. One, (this is going to sound like 1970s feminism) the personal is political and the political is personal. So, the personal reason is that spirituality, faith, religious belief is such a key driver for a majority, in fact probably the vast majority of the world's population. So even people of no particular religious faith will have guiding values or ethics around which they shape their lives. And the majority of humans historically and in the present day are people of faith. So, I think if you want to understand how humans tick and how we work, and how our own personal motivations work, it's critical to engage with that.

Some of that for me was informed by my own background growing up. I grew up in Brunswick, in the city Melbourne suburb, which at the time was the sort of first port of call for any new immigrant group coming to Australia. You moved to Brunswick for your first couple of years as you found your feet. And it meant that the school I went to – I'm from a British Australian background, you know, I was like one of about 2% of the school that came from a white Australian background, but the religious diversity of the school was incredible. And I benefited so much from that. And we were kind of curious about each other's faith background. So, at a personal level, I found it valuable to be able to ask and answer some of those questions. What is it that we believe and why do we believe it? And what impact does it have on our lives? So that's the personal. 

At the political level, you just can't understand 90% of what's happening in the world today without some appreciation or awareness of the role of religion, of belief systems, in shaping world events. That goes, I mean, anyone who's been to a European art gallery is going to know the phenomenon – if you don't understand what the woman and the baby is or what that guy on the cross is you just can't make sense of the art, right? So, there's some cultural elements to this. But if you take things like the war between Russia and Ukraine, you know. Why did Putin invade Russia? Well, actually, a big part of it has to do with issues around his Orthodox faith and the role that the church is playing in creating a construct of what a nation ought to look like and the role of faith in prosecuting and growing that nation. You know, in the Middle East, you can't understand the politics around Israel, Palestine, Gaza, you know, Saudi Arabia, Iran, Iraq, you just don't understand it if you haven't got a background around Christianity, Islam and Judaism. It just doesn't make sense without them. So, you might not like the religious content, or you might not agree with it, but I think to understand people and to understand our politics and culture, it's just essential.

RV: Yeah, but we hear, at least anecdotally, that teachers can sometimes worry about that sense of getting it wrong when teaching about religion. So, what are some of those important considerations teachers should make when approaching any of those religious issues or beliefs?

PS: Yeah, it's funny – so, I would probably say I get worried if I'm talking about mathematics, that I'm going to get it wrong. You know, does 2 + 2 equal 4. And of course, sometimes you do get wrong. So, the first thing I say is defuse the issue, just treat it like any other subject. You know, teachers are very well-trained professional educators. Ask what is the anxiety or what's the reason why you're worried about getting it wrong? … So, number 1, do your homework. And there's such great resources out there, from the Dummies guide to individual religions and so on.

But I think the reason why the anxiety creeps in, is that particularly in Australia we're not used to talking about religion. It's seen as a private matter. There are actually some limitations on what you can talk about in some public settings, including classrooms. So, I think making sure you know what the guidelines are, your code of conduct in your context is important. But of course, these are deeply held personal matters. So, I think, being very careful that you're not being seen to prosecute or advocate for a particular form of religion that might be seen as interfering with students' conscience and so on, that's obviously important.

But more positively, I would come at it from a wholly different way about thinking about how do we get students to talk actively about their own religious backgrounds or values or faith positions in the sense of – we're sharing, we're sharing knowledge and information and ideas and we're creating a safe space in which people can talk about their differing perspectives. So, the short version of my answer, Rebecca, would probably be it's about teachers creating a space where a safe and inclusive and wide-ranging and honest conversation can happen.

RV: Yeah, and as you alluded to when talking about your own personal experience in the classroom, we know that classrooms are diverse. Students bring a whole range of different experiences and beliefs to them. So, I'm wondering then, how can teachers engage students in those sort of meaningful conversations about religion in a respectful way, making sure that the respect is right at the forefront of it all?

PS: Yes, I'm a bit of an optimist around some of these things. So, I hope what I say is helpful to teachers who are listening. But I would always start with the positive approach. So, it's about getting people to talk about their own backgrounds or to respond to, you know, presentations and input about different religions in a positive way. So, it's creating that respectful environment.

How do you do that? I think students, particularly younger children, can surprise us in that get them to set the rules of engagement. You know, what do they think is a fair set of conditions? Can you get a consensus in the classroom? Maybe as your first ethics or values-based conversation: How are we going to have these conversations? What are the limits? And I would hope that if you put most human beings in a room, you'll get an 80% agreement – you listen to someone else before you speak, you don't interrupt, you don't criticise the person (you criticise, you know, the comments or the idea). And you might begin by, ‘we're just going to listen before we start to talk about differences’. You might start talking about ‘what do things hold in common?’ before you start talking about ‘where are they opposed?’. 

So, I think there's a range of techniques that can be used. But a bit like talking about faith itself, I'd start by talking about what are the values the students might be able to pull together about how to have that respectful conversation.

RV: Yeah, and some of these issues or some of these conversations, are really big conversations. And we find sometimes that schools actually face pushback from parents or communities when certain religious topics are introduced in the classroom. Have you found that to also be the case in your own experience? And then also, how did you go about navigating that?

PS: Yes, so I think there's 2 issues here. The first one I've talked about already is around how to have that respectful conversation and be very careful that you're not seen to be trying to change someone's actual faith or belief. So, creating that respectful context is, I think, the first issue.

The second for me is, again, this is an Australian thing you wouldn't find in all countries. There can be a generic hostility to religion, particularly Christianity or Islam, but to religion in general. And we're seeing that at the moment with debates about anti-Semitism and about Islamophobia. But also, there's just a broader sense that religion is not a topic of public conversation, it's not relevant. So, we have to tread carefully for those reasons as well. 

My own approach is always, again, to be the optimist, is to take a positive approach. So actually, just last week, there was a letter in the newspaper criticising the centre that I work for and saying there was a pilgrimage someone wanted to set up that was going to end in Canberra and they wanted the pilgrimage to end at, there's a very, very large cross on the site that I work on in Canberra. And I said, look, a minority of the Australian population is Christian. Wouldn't there be a better place, a more inclusive place to end a pilgrimage? Now, part of me said, come on, guys, it's a religious pilgrimage, it's going to end at a site of religious significant. But instead of saying that, what I said was, yes, there is a cross there and we're not ashamed of it. But there's also lots of other things there. There's a huge piece of native grassland that nature lovers would like. There is a place of great significance to First Nations peoples, so it's a place to come to think about reconciliation.

So, one way to go is to move away from an exclusive view of there is one religious truth or there is an unavoidable conflict between different religious truths and instead try to create a conversation that's about value-add – there are lots of different points of view and at a personal, and sometimes a communal level, we may agree that one of those is right and the others are wrong, but in the context of the classroom, let's take the approach of curiosity. Can we find out what all the points of view, what all the ideas are before we move straight to the pushback or the criticism?

And I say that because a critical part of the work we can do in thinking about religion, faith, spirituality, religious practice, religious dress (call it what you will), is to create a different kind of conversation where we don't shout at each other and we don't move straight to conflict. And if we can do that, again, I think there is the possibility of great hope for our future.

RV: Yeah, yep, that's a very good point. And Peter, I'm thinking about the teacher listening to this episode and perhaps they're just starting out and want to build their confidence in this space. Where do you suggest they begin? Are there any resources that you could suggest that they seek out to help them to build that confidence?

PS: Yes, there are. And I think there's 3 sets of resources I'd point to. One is, there are a number of really good organisations in Australia that are great at helping people have multi-faith conversations. So Together for Humanity is one, there would be others. And they can actually provide experts who can come into your school or your classroom for initial discussion and help set up something. So, the teacher doesn't have to bear all the weight, all the flak for doing that. There are groups out there that can help. 

I think a second piece is to engage with some of the really good basic information about different faith groups. So, what would it look like to find out – the school will have this information – what's the demographics of your school? What are the cultural, ethnic, linguistic and religious backgrounds of students' families or simply of the area from which the school draws its population? Go to the Australian Bureau of Statistics Census returns, they'll actually give you some statistics to work with where you can make it a bit more neutral. So rather than talking about ‘who have we got in the classroom?’ actually, ‘in this suburb or this town, we've got the following religions according to the Census…’. Then there are some quite simple dummies guides. So, the Christian Research Association has produced guides after each census to the different religious groups. The Australian Bureau of Statistics itself produces some really good basic material. And because you're talking demographics, I think it feels a bit more neutral, you know, it's a little bit safer as a starting point. 

But I think the third one I'd go to is don't be afraid to start with good old-fashioned Western philosophy. So, it's the conversation, and we don't do this very well in Australia either, it's the conversation about how we have the conversation, the conversation about how we think. And of course, 17th century philosophers, (I would say this, I'm a 17th century historian) were some of the first people to start to question religion as the basis of knowledge. But that forced them to ask the question, what is truth? How do we know something? 

And again, my colleague Stan Grant writes beautifully in most of his books about how we have conversations, how we think, how we approach truth through a variety of means. There are other First Nations authors as well. They write children's books that can help us see there's a whole different way of seeing the universe from what we thought. And again, starting in a First Nations space might be another way to start the conversation. But I'm very big on the philosophy, the First Nations piece, because it just gives us that chink in to questioning: How do we normally learn? How do we normally think? How do we normally have a conversation? And yes, even with 6- or 7-year-olds, you can do this. You can start a conversation about how we know things that might create a set of rules of engagement, a way of talking to each other, and then you can introduce the topic of religion and go from there.

RV: Yeah, fantastic. Well, Professor Peter Sherlock, you've certainly given us a lot to think about and it's been a very thoughtful discussion. Thank you for sharing your insights today with Teacher magazine.

PS: Absolute pleasure, Rebecca.

That's all for this episode, thanks for listening. I'll leave a link to the original webinar with Pru Mitchell and Professor Peter Sherlock in the transcript of this episode over at our website, teachermagazine.com. If you enjoyed this podcast, please take a moment to hit the follow button on your podcast app and leave us a review. Both of those things help more people like you to find our podcast and they're a really big support for the Teacher team. We'll be back with a new episode very soon.