The Research Files Episode 104: TALIS 2024 with Dr Tim Friedman

Hello and thanks for listening to this podcast from Teacher – I'm Jo Earp. It's Episode 104 of The Research Files and the topic is the Teaching and Learning International Survey, better known as TALIS. It's a really important one, this, in terms of capturing the views and experiences of those in the profession. It's actually the largest international survey of teachers and leaders – 280,000 educators from 55 countries and economies took part in 2024, including 359 schools and 6,040 teachers here in Australia. The international and country results were released earlier this month. Dr Tim Friedman, Senior Research Fellow here at the Australian Council for Educational Research (ACER) and lead author of the Australian TALIS 2024 report is my guest. Now, we're going to be taking a closer look at how we're faring on staff wellbeing, collegiality, mentoring, and induction support, and also how the findings could inform some of the conversations that you're having in your own leadership teams and staffrooms. So, let's dive in.

Jo Earp: Hi Tim, thanks so much for joining me today. We're going to be exploring some of the TALIS 2024 findings from Australia, but I thought it would be good to just give a bit of context first of all. In Australia, we've got data for primary and lower secondary teachers, haven't we?

Tim Friedman: Hi Jo, thanks for having me. You're right, TALIS primarily focuses on the lower secondary level, so all of the countries that you mentioned before collect data at that level. There is an option for countries to also collect data at other educational levels, and Australia opted to also participate in the primary level. So, we've got really good comparison data for other countries at the lower secondary level. Only about 16 or so countries collected data at that primary level. So that means our lower secondary comparison is very good, our primary level comparison data against other countries, there's not as many. So, we tend to focus our comparisons at the lower secondary level, but we still compare our primary teachers to our lower secondary teachers.

JE: Yeah, so it's really good for comparing that primary and lower secondary. But in the report, and I'll pop a link into that into the transcript, if you look, there will be some OECD comparisons and then some of the other data won’t have that comparison. So that's just to point that out first of all. So, Australia's participation in TALIS 2024 was managed by ACER. It's been a while since the last TALIS cycle, hasn't it? How often does it take place and what exactly does it look at?

TF: Yeah, so it's the fourth cycle of TALIS now. ACER's been the contractor for it for the Australian government for all 4 cycles. TALIS was traditionally run every 5 years, so 2008 to 2013, 2018, then it jumped 6 years over that COVID period of time to 2024, and the OECD has already announced that the next cycle is planned for 2030.

JE: And what kind of things does it focus on? As I was saying, it really captures that teacher and leader voice, doesn't it?

TF: Yeah, it's unique in that it's the only study of its kind where the primary focus is on teachers and school principals. There's other large-scale assessments where those respondent groups are asked their opinions on things but that's typically student-focused, whereas this is really about the whole teaching and learning focus, the whole focus of the study.

JE: So, it’s things like what's happening in the classroom, what the working environment might be like, maybe some PD aspects, but it doesn't ask them about sort of like what's happening outside of their job. It's very much based in what's happening in the school.

TF: Right, exactly. So, it's about really what the teaching profession is like at this point in time. What are their experiences at school? What are their challenges? And anything that sort of focuses on that sort of school level environment.

JE: And as you say, it's been every 5 years and now every 6 years. And, importantly, Australia's taken part in every cycle, hasn't it? Which gives us this really, kind of rich data set, doesn't it?

TF: Yeah, and that's the real advantage of TALIS. You've got the comparisons between Australia and other countries. You've got the comparisons between lower secondary teachers and primary teachers. But now we've got these 4 data points over time; and it's really quite telling if you look at changes over time between 2018 to 2024.

JE: Okay then, let's have a chat about some of the things coming out of TALIS 2024. One theme that really does come through strongly is teacher wellbeing. What's the data saying for Australia in comparison to the rest of the OECD?

TF: Well, certainly this is a finding that's gotten a lot of attention here. The report showed that about one-third of our teachers at both levels reported being stressed ‘a lot’. It's probably not a finding that's too surprising because there's been lots of other articles that have come out in the last year, with information coming out from the University of New South Wales that showed similar findings. And even the day before the TALIS release, there was a teacher workforce data set released that showed similar findings that our teachers are relatively stressed. So, it's interesting because our teachers do come up as being relatively more stressed than other TALIS countries. In fact, I think out of all the TALIS countries, our teachers reported being the second most stressed. And we also do see an increase over time, that our teachers showed significantly higher levels of stress in the current cycle compared to the data collection in 2018.

JE: Yeah. So that's a really stark finding there, and it's obviously a big priority for Australia to take a look at how we can manage that. I'm interested, has there been an increase in stress in any of the other OECD countries? Or is this just something we're seeing in Australia?

TF: It's certainly not an issue that Australian teachers are facing alone. We did see there was a significant increase for the average of OECD countries. If you have a look at the report, the countries that sort of had high levels of stress, and I mentioned that we were second – we have the Canadian province of Alberta came up as the most stressed, we have New Zealand I think the third most stressed in there. Those countries who we might typically compare ourselves to in these types of studies, they also saw really large increases. I might just give a quick disclaimer there. We don't actually compare ourselves to these countries too much in the current report because those countries actually failed to meet the minimum participation standards, which Australia was able to meet (and that's actually quite a good, positive finding that our teachers were able to do this). But we do see when we compare ourselves to countries that we often compare ourselves to in the report, and these are countries that performed quite well in the most recent cycle of PISA – so these are where the students are doing quite well in comparison to other countries – we do see that some of those countries also had quite significant increases in teacher stress over the same period. Countries like Estonia, Japan and Singapore.

JE: Yeah, so PISA is the Programme for International Student Assessment and that's the one for 15-year-olds. So, let's have a think about the sources of stress then for Australian teachers. What are some of those main sources of stress and are you seeing any differences between lower secondary and primary teachers?

TF: Okay, so firstly, the TALIS survey does ask lots of questions on things that do contribute to stress. Some of the things that came up consistently were things like higher administrative workload, classroom management demands, curriculum changes within the school, increasing classroom diversity; these are all things that came up. We're seeing similar patterns between lower secondary and primary teachers in terms of the source of stress. I wouldn't say it's exactly the same, but the same sorts of things are certainly coming up.

JE: There are some differences though, aren't there, when it comes to younger teachers and early career teachers?

TF: Yeah, you're absolutely right. And this was a consistent finding across all TALIS countries – or I should say at least the majority of TALIS countries – that it's our younger teachers, our less experienced teachers, are really finding the impact of stress much greater. And just a stat for you, 55% of teachers with 5 years or less experience, they reported classroom discipline as a source of stress, compared to 38% of teachers that had 10 or more years. And we know that the older and the more experienced teachers are the ones that have probably learned how to have better control of the classroom, and I guess these things probably get a bit easier with experience.

JE: Yeah, I think it's an interesting discussion because I'm just thinking if you're a school leader out there, you'll have a whole range of teachers at different levels of experience, at different points of their career, clearly needing different levels of support. And sometimes we tend to think of that in terms of professional learning, but also wellbeing as well, which I don't think we talk much about in terms of the different levels of wellbeing support. But I guess it really just goes to that point that you need to find out what's happening in your own context, for your teachers, basically. So, there are clearly, as we've said, there's some challenges there – teacher wellbeing is a big priority. Interestingly, TALIS also collects data on job satisfaction and Australian teachers remain positive about the profession, don't they?

TF: Yeah, I think this is really important to understand that the report does show that while our teachers are stressed, they are showing a lot of job satisfaction. They became teachers for the right reasons, they want to make a positive contribution to society, they like working with young people, and they generally show that they actually get a lot of job satisfaction. And that's really important. We know that job satisfaction, and the TALIS report shows this, that job satisfaction and things like the joy of teaching, these are predictors of teachers that want to stay in the profession. These are predictors of teachers that have higher levels of wellbeing. So, finding ways to encourage teachers to have job satisfaction really acts as sort of a protective measure. And the results sort of show that we're getting the majority of our teachers, something like three-quarters of them, say that the advantages outweigh the disadvantages. A similar amount would say that if they could decide again, they would still choose to be a teacher.

JE: So that's good that they remain positive about the profession and that job satisfaction is still there. And as you were saying, that's a protective factor as well in terms of wellbeing. What are some of the other things that can make a difference then? I want to start with mentoring.

TF: Yeah, mentoring – Australian teachers do mentoring really well. The mentoring rates are quite high, and what the TALIS report shows is teachers really got a lot out of mentoring. Now, that's actually if they're the ones that were being mentored, but also the ones mentoring other people. So, it seemed to have a benefit for both roles, and these were linked to job satisfaction and lower stress.

JE: So, looking at the report, it's interesting – mentoring, Australia was always quite strong in that, but we're doing even better this time around. Shanghai though, that's obviously a standout, isn't it? That's often sort of held up as a great example of mentoring. They've got a really high participation rate, haven't they?

TF: Yeah, they do, but I think we hold our own in that area as well. Yeah, we stand out in that way. 

JE: And it's interesting what you were saying about it's not just being on that side of being mentored, but the person doing the mentoring as well. So, it's really good in terms of your own experience and giving you that job satisfaction. And as we say, that's one of those protective factors in terms of wellbeing. Another strength for Australia is induction activities, that one stood out to me, and induction programs.

TF: Yeah, we stand out pretty high in the report for that as one of the countries that has one of the highest levels of formal induction programs. Formal induction programs are things where the principal gives the teacher regular supervision, they might have a reduced teaching load, or a formal mentoring arrangement with the experienced teachers (which we discussed seem to have a benefit). But the association between participation in these formal induction programs had really positive teacher outcomes, benefits, things like job satisfaction and reduced stress. So, formal induction programs or something even more informal, so something a bit more unstructured or unplanned, really has positive benefits for teachers.

JE: So, those sort of more informal ones – that might be things like, so you might get like a welcome book or something, but it might just be a one-off. Is it that kind of thing? Or, like, ‘here's the kitchen, here's what we do in this room ...’ You know, is that what the informal ones are?

TF: Yeah, I would hope it's more than a tour of the kitchen! But you're right, it's something a little bit less formal.

JE: Yeah! And the formal induction programs, and the informal ones, again, it's important to point out we're not just talking about teachers who are new to the profession, but it's really important that you might have been in the profession 20 years, but if you're starting a new school, you're going to need that induction program as well.

TF: Exactly. And I think it goes back to the whole teacher collaboration and positive relationships in the school. These are always linked to sort of positive outcomes. So, the better the teachers feel integrated, the happier they feel.

JE: Oh Tim that leads me nicely onto the next question, actually – thank you for that, what a great link! For leaders listening then, the mentoring and induction focus is crucial when it comes to staff wellbeing, but collaboration, as you've mentioned, that also makes a massive difference in building teacher confidence and wellbeing. The TALIS 2024 data show collegiality remains really strong in Australia, doesn't it?

TF: You're right. Something like 9 out of 10 teachers agree that they can rely on each other. Teachers work well together with helping supporting the learning needs of individual students. And we also see that if the teachers get along with each other, where the teachers respect the principals – and our teachers largely do respect the school principals – when they work well with other school community stakeholders, so the students, and that positive relationship with the students, when they have positive relationships with the parents and guardians, and they feel valued by the parents and guardians, this leads to sort of greater outcomes for the teachers, which you would expect would lead to greater outcomes for the student population.

JE: Okay, so just to recap then. So, obviously wellbeing is a concern, and if you’re sat there thinking, well, yep, it's something that I need to do something about, what are the kinds of things that we can be thinking about as a leadership team – we've gone through a few there in terms of induction programs, mentoring, that idea of job satisfaction and collaboration being a strong thing, and collegiality as well. Tim, it sounds like there are some real strengths there and then some key areas that do need attention. To finish off then, what's your kind of takeaway message for teachers and leaders?

TF: Well, firstly, I would say that we've got really amazing teachers. It's great that we're seeing such positive relationships within the school. It's great that we're seeing high levels of job satisfaction and teachers that want to be there, despite the challenges and the stress. My takeaway is, continue that good work with these positive relationships in there. Keep listening to the teachers, keep participating in these sorts of studies where we collect data and we find out what teachers actually believe and what they find is necessary. Find time for things like professional development, because we know that these things help in building teacher confidence or self-efficacy, which are linked to teacher outcomes like lower stress, higher levels of wellbeing.

JE: Yeah. So, as always, we'd encourage you to go have a look at the full report. I'll put a link into the transcript of this podcast. For now, though, Dr Tim Friedman thank you so much for sharing your expertise with Teacher.

TF: Thanks for having me, Jo.

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References

Friedman, T., Ainley, J., Schulz, W., & Dix, K. (2025). TALIS 2024. Australia’s Report. Australian Council for Educational Research. https://doi.org/10.37517/978-1-74286-801-1

OECD. (2025). Results from TALIS 2024: The State of Teaching. OECD Publishing. https://doi.org/10.1787/90df6235-en