The Research Files Episode 100: Celebrating 100 episodes

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Jo Earp: Hello and thanks for tuning in to this special episode of The Research Files. I'm Jo Earp.

Rebecca Vukovic: I'm Rebecca Vukovic.

Dominique Russell: I'm Dominique Russell.

JE: And as I say, it is a very special episode today. So it's 100 episodes of The Research Files, and we've got something special lined up. We're each going to talk about some of the favourite episodes across those years. It spans 10 years actually, and for those of you who are not sure about that series or maybe you’re new to it, it's something that we do at Teacher every month, we interview usually a professor, lead author of a study on a new piece of research or a body of research. And we try and explain to teachers and school leaders out there firstly, what does the research say about this? Why should we care? In other words. What does that particular study say? What are the key findings and what were the aims of the study? And then really importantly, that practical aspect, so what does that mean for you? What does that mean for you in your practice? And maybe some things to think about from the latest research. So that's the idea of the series. And as I say, we've been going for… this is our 100th episode now and we're each going to share some of our favourites. 

So I'm going to start off with mine. I'm going all the way back to episode 3. This really is one of my favourites. It sticks in my mind. It's with Steve Zubrick, Senior Principal Research Fellow who was at the time at the Telethon Kids Institute in Perth and Winthrop Professor at the University of Western Australia, and this episode is from 2014. It's all about student attendance in WA government schools and the link with educational outcomes. This is really interesting because here's a little snippet of him on one of the major findings, which is that every day counts.

It was once thought that, well, maybe there's a certain amount of school that any child can miss without it affecting their performance. But the story is a lot easier to tell than that – it's not a 'threshold' effect, it's called a 'dose response' effect, so that each day a child misses school has a slight impact on their NAPLAN performance. Now, the thing that's really important about that is that in fact those effects accumulate over time.

JE: Now what I thought was really interesting about this particular clip is, I want you to remember that this is 2014, so 11 years ago now. And here's this study saying ‘every day counts’ and this has kind of become a real sort of common phrase now – every day counts. And one question that we often say within The Research Files is what next for the research? What next is in this area? Another interesting thing about this episode is that 8 years later then, Teacher team member at the time, Zoe Kaskamanidis, she did a Research Files (episode 75 if you want to look that one up) with Kirsten Hancock also of Telethon Kids Institute and they spoke about some more data which was unpacking some reasons behind student absences, so how different absences affect student outcomes.? What families and schools can do to support students? So that's like in this one episode that encapsulates all those things that are going on. So that's definitely one of my favourites. 

Second one then, I’m going to go to the UK now. So we also speak to people around the world, this is episode 9. Yes episode 9. Professor Peter Barrett, who was at Salford University at the time. It was a study into the link between physical classroom design in primary schools and academic achievement. Really interesting study, the bit that sticks in my mind from this one is the Clever Classrooms report. So this is something really, really practical that they did. They didn't have to do it, actually. And it's got suggestions for teachers and it's taking it that one step further. It's communicating the research findings about, hey, here are some things that you can actually do now. 

So, things like not having too much going on in classroom displays. God, if you've been a teacher like the temptation to just cover everything in classroom displays so you know, like how much is too much? Not covering up natural light, another really important one. So again, if you're a teacher and you've got a lovely airy classroom, the temptation is to start sticking things on the windows because that's space, so there's tips about that. So here's a little snippet from Peter just explaining about the Clever Classrooms report.

…the Clever Classrooms report is something we [technically didn't] have to do for the research project. But we had a commitment to try and promote the results and to make a difference in practice. And we'd collected so much useful information that we decided to try and put the 'hat' of the designer on and the ‘hat’ of the teacher on and [look at] what you could practically do to try and react to these results. We had lots of illustrations that we could put in, so we've literally done that and, in the centre of this report, there are 20 pages – 2 pages for each of the broad factors we were considering – with illustrations about what can be done.

JE: All right then. So that’s Professor Peter Barrett. Reminder – that's episode 9 if you want to look that one up and r there's links... so with all of The Research Files we do links into the original research and then any other reports and related reading as well. So have a look on there, obviously on the website teachermagazine.com all the transcripts are on there as well, so you'll be able to find all the links. 

OK, number 3 then, episode 16. We're moving on to 2016 we’re in, with Professor Tom Kane. And we spoke to him about Harvard University's Best Foot Forward project. That was exploring the effectiveness of videoing lessons as a feedback tool in teacher observations. Again, we're talking about 2016 you know, it's quite common now… So the teachers were invited to record themselves for this study and then supply the video that they wanted to, so they actually drove that whole process. I was thinking listening to this one, you know that student collaboration and feedback where it's really important to get the buy in? Tom was saying that the filming the sharing process, his quote was ‘it made the teachers true collaborators in their own PD’ which is what I really liked about this episode. And here's a bit of a clip of him explaining more.

Right, it made them more willing to actually be observed by others than if the observations all had to be in person. I mentioned earlier, people said well 'Do you really want to give up the element of surprise?' Another concern people raised early was 'Won't the cameras be distracting?' Well, they were a little distracting but not nearly as distracting as having another adult standing in the back of the classroom ...

JE:  OK, that one was Tom Kane from Harvard University. And actually, just while we're on there – thank you to all the researchers out there who've participated in these podcasts. It's been fantastic to be able to share their expertise, so it's great they've set aside time and see the value in that as well. 

OK, next one, episode 36 we're on now, we're moving to 2017. This was a double header. It was on student fitness and wellbeing. It was with retired Scottish headteacher Elaine Wyllie and Dr Jordan Smith as well from University of Newcastle here in Australia. Elaine Wyllie – wow.  Look, could this be my favourite episode of all time? Possibly. She founded something called The Daily Mile. And yes, this is a Research Files and it has that element of the researcher in [it] as well. But what was really interesting about this was this was just a small idea that she had that was growing into something massive. So The Daily Mile, it's still going strong today. This is from 2017 this episode, still going strong today. It's children running, wheeling, walking at their own pace. It has to be outside. They aim to run or jog or wheel for 15 minutes a day. That's all. So the mile is not important. 

I mean, if they can finish a mile, that's great, but it's the 15 minutes. So they do that every day and it's now taking…so I had a look, it's now taking place in 21,000-plus nurseries and schools in 98 countries. And Elaine has won loads of awards and accolades. She became an MBE. She won a lifetime achievement award in Scotland for her work. At the time that we recorded this episode then, I think she must have just retired as head teacher. She was head teacher at St Ninians Primary School in Scotland and here she is explaining how it started. She'll do that much better than me. Here's Elaine now.

I'd heard previously about concerns around children's fitness and their weight. In February 2012 a volunteer in the school, an elderly gentleman, said to me ‘Elaine, the children are not fit'. I checked with the PE teacher and she said ‘No, they're not fit, most of them are exhausted by the warm-up in PE'. And so, just to confirm things for myself, I took a Year 5 class out of 10-year-olds to see if they could run around the field, because I'd often thought why don't children just run around the field to get fit, wouldn't that work?

Anyway, I asked them to run around the field and it was a shocking sight – most of them couldn't get as far as halfway round before they were exhausted. A handful were alright and could keep going, but most of them were thoroughly exhausted by even halfway round the field. I had a chat with their teacher, and the children, and together we decided that they would run around the field every day for 15 minutes just to see if they could build up their fitness. That was in February 2012. For 4 weeks they did that, and I and everybody else was amazed at what happened next.

JE: So like I said, this is just a brilliant example of a teacher, a head teacher out there who thinks, OK, this is the need in my community. This is what I'd love to start and it's growing into something so big now that there are schools in Australia doing The Daily Mile now or kilometre whatever you want to call it here. But yeah. And like I say, it's going strong, fantastic to see it going strong in 2025 so well done to Elaine and great episode to listen to if you want to go back and have a listen to that one – reminder episode 36.

The last one then, we're moving on to episode 57, trauma-informed practice in schools. Again, this is 2020, so quite early on in that kind of discussion around trauma-informed practice. It was an interview with educational and developmental psychologist Dr Emily Berger and I really loved speaking to her about this. It was a really practical episode. It was one of those, as I was saying, it wasn't a new study in particular, but she was kind of bringing together a lot of the elements of research and saying more about, you know, what had gone on in this area, what some of the good findings were, where they were still gaps in the research. So it was one of those episodes where it's more a body of work. Here she is then, this clip that I've chosen she's talking about some of the common triggers for students that provoke a fight or flight response.

I've seen a range of things both through my research but also through working as a psychologist. It can be things such as a teacher raising their voice. It could be things such as a door being closed to the classroom, so students feeling that they don't have control over the situation – they can't escape. As you say, fight or flight is all about ‘I'm either going to stay here and fight or I'm going to flee, and is there something in my way that's stopping me from fleeing the situation?' So, teachers raising their voice, or a door being closed to the classroom. It can be changes in routine – that's probably a really big one, and that's a part of the principles of course that we'll talk about – having consistency in the approach. Not only consistency across home and school, but also consistency in terms of how the teachers actually respond to students. Doing as you say you're going to do for these students. So, not changing the rules half way through for students, that's all about this approach of consistency and collaboration.

JE: OK. So that was Emily Berger episode 57. Reminder 2020. Those are my picks. I could have, you know, again thank you to everybody who's taken part. I could have picked any number of episodes, but I think they're a really interesting cross section of the kind of thing that we've been doing. 

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JE: Alright, Rebecca.

RV: It was so nice to listen to your favourite picks, Jo, thank you for sharing that. I have picked 5 and I'm going to whip through my favourite episodes from the last 100. I started with Teacher in 2016 so the first, one of the first Research Files episodes I did was with John Malouff from the University of New England. This was episode 23 and this was in September 2016. So, with colleagues, he wrote this article for the Australian Journal of Education, which looks at different types of potential bias in grading, including things like gender, race and physical attractiveness, which I found really interesting. They found, unsurprisingly, that yes, there is bias in grading. I asked John, ‘are there any other strategies that teachers could employ to minimise the impact of bias?’ His advice was ‘the less you know about the individual, the better’, which I found really interesting. He said, ‘the fairest way to treat students is to not let these biases creep in, not let them affect us, and the surest way to do that is to keep the student anonymous’. So it's an episode that really stuck with me. 

The other one I wanted to share was my episode with John Munro, who is one of my favourites. This one was on gifted education. This one was from January 2020, so just before the world imploded and COVID happened. So this conversation centres around gifted learners. In particular, how to identify these learners, how to understand their learning needs and how to encourage them to reach their potential, both in and out of classroom. So to do this interview, John and I met at a studio in Melbourne, so we did this face-to-face. He was just, like he always is, just so warm and passionate and just knew so much about what he was talking about. I loved his practical strategies. That's what he's best for, best known for. So his strategies were around how to engage gifted learners by first identifying them in the classroom. Here's a short clip about it.

I believe teachers need to do this. If we think of a regular teaching session, really early in the piece I'll stimulate the students' existing knowledge for the topic. Then, I'll discuss with the group as a whole the key ideas. And then we'll have some time when the students practice the ideas, pursue them further and extend them. When I have the ‘stimulating their knowledge' phase, I can notice those students who can tell me more complex questions that they think might be answered by the topic. I can say, ‘what ideas do you think we'll be talking about?' A lot of students will give me a list of regular ideas, some students will give me many more ideas. So I can see gifted knowing really before I begin the teaching.

RV: So I'm sure teachers got a lot out of that conversation. And as Jo mentioned, we'll link to it in the transcript of this episode, so you'll be able to find it easily. 

My third pick was from episode 53, and this was on building a school reading culture. This one was from 2019 and I interviewed Dr Margaret Merga on building a supportive school reading culture from the perspective of school librarians. Of course, at Teacher we love anything to do with reading, and we know our audience loves it as well. So the results from this research were also published in the Australian Journal of Education in a paper titled Building a school reading culture: Teacher librarians' perceptions of enabling and constraining factors. So Margaret ran me through lots of findings like budget and resourcing allocation, advocacy and involvement and parental involvement. But my favourite part of the conversation was her talking about the importance of having school leaders who read. So here is her explaining why that's important.

Firstly there's the obvious – that modelling aspect. We know that the leaders' attitudes and what they do conveys really important ideas about valuing, not just to the staff, but also the students and also more broadly, beyond the school into the community. And so where the principal is a strong advocate of reading, in some cases as I mentioned in the paper, they're sending home newsletters around the importance of parents reading to their students at home, they're really acting as an advocate for reading beyond the school context, so both within a school and also beyond it. And so they're providing that modelling.

But also, where the keen interest in reading is there, and where there's a strong understanding of the association between reading and benefits for literacy, we find leaders may be perhaps better equipped to advocate for positive behaviours and attitudes towards reading within the school context. And also perhaps there might be a link between that resourcing commitment and obviously leaders' own attitudes towards the reading.

RV: So that was Dr Margaret Merga there. 

My 4th pick – this was episode 52 and this one was on keeping students safe online. This was also published in 2019. I interviewed Australia's eSafety Commissioner Julie Inman Grant and I visited their office in Melbourne to record that podcast. It was one of those ones that has stayed with me, and I often talk about it and reference it in different things that we're working on. In this episode we discussed common cyberbullying incidents that young people report to her office, how her team work to protect people online or children online, and where teachers can find resources to help them navigate cyberbullying so that's both in and outside the classroom. In prep for this podcast today, it was really interesting to listen back to my chat with Julie from 6 years ago. In particular, this quote about the pervasiveness of cyberbullying which we’ll play for you now.

The other thing that's really insidious about cyberbullying is that it's 24/7, it's pervasive, and it follows a child home. But it's also covert to parents and teachers but very visible to one's peers – so a child's humiliation is amplified when it's online. So one of the most common forms of bullying that we come across are saying mean or nasty comments online, what young people would describe as ‘creating drama online'. But another major one is social exclusion – so, being invited to a party and deliberately excluding people. Fifteen per cent of our reports are around direct threats or violence or ‘GKY' (Go Kill Yourself). So a real coarsening of language that we're seeing coming through here, that's obviously of huge concern to us.

RV: So as you would have heard, this is an issue that we're all talking about now so with social media bans restricting children under 16 from accessing social media, and then of course shows like Adolescence [Netflix], which we've been talking about a lot. The work of the eSafety Office has never really been more important. 

And my final pick, this one was episode 80 and it was on beginning teachers and teaching quality. This was published in April 2023. I interviewed the wonderful Laureate Professor Jenny Gore from the University of Newcastle. She's also the Director of the Teachers and Teaching Research Centre at the University of Newcastle. This episode was really interesting because she shared a research project she'd been working on. It found that early career teachers deliver the same quality of teaching as their more experienced colleagues. So that sounds weird, doesn't it? So when they were looking at the lessons delivered by teachers with experience ranging from less than one year in the classroom to more than 24 years, they found no statistically significant differences in teaching quality. So obviously that's really interesting. I loved hearing all about it and I thought it would be really controversial actually. So I'll just run through a little bit more about it. So to do this study, Jenny and her team analysed 990 lessons taught by year 3 and 4 teachers in New South Wales public schools. Here’s Jenny herself talking about the surprising results to come from the study.

It’s just that we also know that the quality of teaching in the classroom is the thing that makes the greatest difference for kids’ outcomes and unfortunately with all the noise and everything that’s going on in schools, often teachers have limited time to talk with each other and to work on that really important side of things, which is that work in the classroom. Instead, we know that teachers are overburdened often with administrative functions and a whole lot of other demands on their time. So it’s a very interesting result.

RV: So that was Jenny Gore there. That's all from me. Dom, over to you.

DR: Thank you. I had a similar train of thought to you, Rebecca, when I was kind of going through and picking which episodes I'd like to share today and I thought, what was my first ever episode of The Research Files? I don't go back as far as either of you, but it goes back to March 2018. That was episode 40 in the series, and the episode title for that one is Indigenous perspectives on quality teaching. Definitely something that is still interesting to this day so many years later. I spoke with Brian Lewthwaite. He at the time was Adjunct Professor at James Cook University, but interestingly, he actually joined me on the line from Yukon, Canada. Back then we were speaking on the phone and I recorded our phone call so it'll sound quite scratchy compared to what we're used to now with our beautiful setup that we have. But the content of it, like I say, it still stands really strong today. It was a shorter episode. It was under 15 minutes, but Brian told us about his study that he'd undertaken. 

It was only phase one at that stage and he'd spoken with 30 high school students, 30 teachers and 30 parents about their perspectives on quality teaching. So he was able to gather all of these really rich insights. And something that really stuck out to me when I was re-listening to it recently was he had mentioned in the episode that for him as an international researcher, this project brought up a brand-new concept for him during this project and he called it the concept of code switching. I would explain it myself but Brian will be able to do that much better, so let's throw to a clip of him describing what that means.

For me, as an international researcher, I had never heard of the area of code switching. In the area of educational sociology, we talk about the importance of certain students having capital. They have capital to be able to negotiate the school system. But it was really fascinating to hear from – especially from Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander parents – that they were teaching their kids how to navigate schooling; that there are social protocols that are necessary within schooling, or you're not going to be successful, or you're going to get to be in trouble. You've got to put up your hand, you can't just get out of your seat and walk away. Often a lot of the things that cause students to get into trouble are really just codes of conduct that students might do at home, but they can't do it at school. It was funny, because you actually had parents that talked about that when their children put on that school uniform on a Monday morning, they knew that they were going into school and that they had to behave in a particular way, they had to speak in a different way. Teachers also were aware that students were trying to navigate that space.

DR: So yeah, that was Brian Lewthwaite there. Like I say something that still sticks out to me today. So definitely one that I wanted to bring to you for today's episode.

I'm going to skip forward a little bit now. Like I said, that was episode 40, but the next one that I wanted to share was recorded in 2020. It was episode 59 and our guest was an ACER colleague of ours, but of course 2020 meant we were all working from home. I was recording my podcast episodes in my wardrobe so I wasn't able to sit down with Gayl O’Connor, our colleague here at ACER. She's a Senior Research Fellow and we spoke to her about some science education resources that she just released through the ACER Research Repository. So we'll leave a link to those papers in the transcript of this episode so you can go and have a look back because they're obviously still up and downloadable for teachers. 

The episode was called Meaningful science learning in the early years, so it was an early years focus for this one. And again, what really stood out to me was the number of practical elements in this episode. She was speaking to us about why integrating learning, why integrating science learning in the early years is so beneficial for children. But it's also really beneficial for their teachers, which was really insightful to hear about. She spoke about identifying common misconceptions that kids might have at that age about scientific topics, and also about managing a lack of confidence as a teacher in the early years setting on teaching science to kids of this age, which was really, really great to hear about. 

Looking back on this just the other week when I was prepping for this episode, I had a look at the papers in the ACER Research Repository – some of them have been downloaded 10-12,000 times, so these are resources that are incredibly useful and practical for teachers all around the country, and I'm sure around the world as well. And one thing that I wanted to highlight here with you though is where Gayl's speaking about how educators can tackle children's misconceptions in science, how they can actually identify where a misconception is and where they can go to from there. So, as I said before, Gayl explains it a lot better than I can. So let's just hear from Gayl on that.

So one way that we're supporting the educators is to provide some concept cartoons. This is commonly used in the literature as a way to provide a scenario where you might have 2 or 3 characters talking about something, and they have different viewpoints. So the educators can use those with the students, their children, to say, ‘okay, who do you agree with and why?' and out of that, you start to see what some of these misconceptions are.

So, for example, we have one where children are looking at whether things in the garden are plants or not. And from that, children might have a very narrow view of what a plant is. And that gives the educator a chance to expand out from there.

You can also ask children to draw what they're seeing, what they're observing, or tell their own story. And from that you can start to gauge how well they understand the concept and whether they are coming up with any of those misconceptions. There are lots of those in the literature.

JE: Yeah. It's great to obviously have one in from ACER colleagues. So again, if you don't know, we’re published by the Australian Council for Educational Research, so to have all that research expertise here, colleagues that we can use, is fantastic. Also interesting to hear that you recorded that in the wardrobe. I once recorded one, another ACER colleague, actually Paul Weldon, recorded an episode in a car. So we we've had lots of different spaces obviously during COVID as well.

RV: We've come a long way.

DR: Yeah we make do and we've come a long way. We will not be rushing back to that setting anytime soon, will we? 

So I think I'm on my third pick now and this is episode 66. This is another really practical episode, which is part of why I wanted to bring it today. It was titled Casual relief teacher experiences and supports. This is something that, you know, we recorded this back in 2021. I think if anything, it's even more relevant today with the number of casual relief teachers working in the system in Australia. Definitely that's what we're hearing. So I'm sure people will want to listen back to it now if they missed it initially in 2021. 

I spoke with Minami Uchida about her research on this topic and what I really liked about this episode, it of course, being an episode of The Research Files is she spoke about a research method that we haven't hadn't actually spoken about at the magazine before. It's called practice architecture theory. It was new to me. Minami explained that it essentially looks at 3 different dimensions, which is ‘sayings’, ‘doings’ and ‘relatings’. So it’s quite a qualitative method and she spoke obviously with a number of casual relief teachers about their experience, kind of what supports they would be after, how they felt it going into different schools, and it was really great to hear about casual relief teacher experience in this way. 

And also Minami was able to share some really practical supports that schools can also provide to these teachers coming into their school settings, so there's plenty to take from it as a school leader as well. I thought it would be nice here if we hear Minami's discussion on this, this new research theory that I said before – practice architecture theory – she explained it really well. So I thought it would be nice to hear from her about what that research method involves.

Yeah, so for the sayings, we asked casual teachers to sort of summarise their experiences and what they have learnt. And we found that flexibility was a main saying that came up over and over again for a lot of participants. And another saying was that of behaviour management. So that’s something that was also a repetitive theme which indicates it’s such an important part of their practice.

For the doings, we have two main doings. So the first one was professional development and the second one was accreditation. So casual teachers indicated that there was little to no opportunity to engage in professional development that was meaningful for them. And in terms of accreditation, this was a concern for quite a lot of casual teachers, especially for the new early career teachers to make sure that they are appropriately meeting that sort of proficient status according to the conditions in their respective states.

Last we had relatings. So we asked in the survey about the overall inclusion they felt and to what extent they felt like they were part of the school community. And it was really interesting, it was a really mixed bag. In some schools casual teachers felt very much welcome and included, however in other schools they felt like they were very out of the loop and like they were alien or foreign entities just entering a school community and then leaving.

DR: That was Minami Uchida there.

And my next pick, my 4th pick, is actually the episode directly after that one. It's episode 67. This was titled Understanding racism and racial bias in school settings. It was all about a literature review that had been conducted by Hannah Yared at Monash University so I spoke with her to find out a little bit more. As the title suggests, it delved into racism and racial bias in Australian schools, but it was actually in the primary school setting, not the secondary school setting, which I thought was really interesting. And some really fascinating findings came from the review that would still be incredibly relevant today. They've really stayed with me since the recording. She spoke about this concept of colour blindness. I remember where it was teachers assuming that, you know, students that are really young (they're still children) they don't see race with their peers. But she found, well, actually they do, and it is still important to talk about those things, even when... 

RV: I remember this. I remember listening to this.

DR: Yeah, she was really great at explaining it all in such a really accessible way. And, you know yeah, it's a complex thing, definitely. But she was able to strip it right back and yeah, say it in a great way. She was really succinct. I think that's probably why it's probably stayed with both of us because you can remember exactly what she was saying. And yeah, I've got a clip here that I'd love to share, which is kind of Hannah talking about the findings in general, which were really interesting.

So, at the moment there appears to be a real mismatch, and this is what the paper that I published sort of revealed, that there was a real mismatch between what children need and what they want in terms of conversations around race or dealing with racism and what schools and teachers are actually providing them with.

So, teachers appear to I guess avoid or minimise a lot of these discussions which sometimes is driven by an incorrect belief that children don’t see race, they don’t see colour, or they’re too young to have these conversations. And you know, whereas the research shows kind of the opposite – that children do see race, they’re capable of holding racially biased views and acting in racist ways.

And that might sound really concerning, but they’re also capable and very much in need of educative conversations to build in that sense of morality and strong sense of justice. And avoiding these conversations can potentially increase children’s biases. Because when we stop talking to kids about race, they don’t stop thinking about it.

JE: OK. Thank you, Dom. Thank you, Rebecca, for those wonderful choices. I really enjoyed that. That was great, wasn't it? Listening to all those clips and … it brought back some memories. I think that was a fitting celebration. What do you reckon?

RV: We’ve had a lot of fun and we've learned a lot.

DR: Absolutely. 

JE: Oh my gosh, yeah, we have. So yeah, that was really, really good. Thank you for sharing your favourites. And yeah, look, if you're listening and you've got particular favourites you want to share and comment on, then drop us a line. Drop us a voice note if you want. Comment on the transcript to this at teachermagazine.com, but that's it for this special episode. 

We will be back with episode 101 of The Research Files. It's going be on Dalmatians. No, it's not. It's just 101 and we will be back soon with that episode, but in the meantime, if you do want to listen, there are the other 99 episodes to listen to from The Research Files. But there's also all the other series as well that we do so there’s over 360 I think it is now, podcasts in the archive. They're all free to access, so knock yourselves out on those and one last time, thank you to everybody who's taken part in all those episodes. So for now, it's bye from all of us. 

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