Before we begin this episode, a warning that this podcast discusses mental health. If you or anyone you know needs help, in Australia you can call Lifeline on 13 11 14.
Hello and thanks for tuning in to this podcast from Teacher magazine, the resource for K-12 educators published by ACER, the Australian Council for Educational Research. I'm Jo Earp.
Welcome everyone to this special episode. We're going to be talking about leadership burnout with educational leader Brad Gaynor. It's a timely topic. It's R U OK? Day in Australia today. Brad's recent book, From Burnout to Breakthrough: The Leadership Reset, looks at the growing pressure on school leaders and how that can impact wellbeing. He also shares his own lived experience of burnout. There's a lot to reflect on from this really important discussion.
Jo Earp: Hi Brad, welcome to the Teacher podcast for this special episode. I'm really grateful to you today for sharing these important but, also, they are very personal insights with our listeners, so thanks for that. I thought it might be useful first of all though to get a bit of an overview of your career and your work in the education sector.
Brad Gaynor: Thanks for having me on, I've been looking forward to having a conversation with you. So yeah, been in education for, I think it's my 36th year. So, I was surrounded by a lot of teachers growing up, so I always knew I was going to be a teacher. Principal of 4 schools, was the national president of a national association, on the board of a few different national principal associations, and then have now gone into sort of system leadership. So that's where I am now.
And a few things along the journey, which have led me to sort of write a few books and become a little bit vocal on, I think, concerns that I have about education, but more so trying to come up with some of the solutions. But then just recently started my PhD. But it's funny, I was filling out some forms to go overseas recently and occupation, and I still put teacher! So, I still see myself as a teacher. I think it always stays with you. So that's pretty much me in a very quick nutshell.
JE: That's an interesting one that, isn't it? That is always the test, isn't it – what you put on your passport. You're right. You're right, yeah. So, if you're already a Teacher bulletin subscriber or you just visit the site to read the articles and have a look at the infographics, you've probably already come across Brad's most recent work in that leader wellbeing space. So, in March this year, we published an extract from your book, Brad – From Burnout to Breakthrough: The Leadership Reset. Now, that book explores the growing pressures on school and organisational leaders as well and the toll that has on their wellbeing. And that extract that we chose for Teacher was specifically about your own experience of burnout, including some of those warning signs. So, we're going to be talking about that today. After going through that experience of burnout, then, why did you feel strongly about writing the book?
BG: Look, there’s a bit of a story to it. So, I didn't quite understand what was happening to me. I just knew that I wasn't firing on all cylinders. So, I made the decision to step away from being a principal. I knew I was tired. I wasn't thinking clearly. There were lots of things which I didn't understand at that particular point in time, so I decided to step away. And then it was 4 months after I stepped away, I was diagnosed with cancer. So, I sort of had a lot going on that got to the point where my wife actually said, ‘I think you need to go and talk to someone, like you actually need to go and see a psychologist’.
So, I did, and that was probably the best thing I ever did because they were really able to help me separate the burnout and the cancer as 2 different things. And we really did focus on the burnout – which is what my psychologist was calling it. And then I just started to research and read things, and he actually encouraged me to write. He said, ‘I just want you to write down as you think of things, as you're feeling or you remember an incident or you remember a point in time or how you felt, just write about it’. So, I started to write about it. And that's actually then sort of, it just sort of became a collection of work.
And when I was able to look back at it – this is probably 2, 2-and-a-half years after – I'd actually sort of realised how I'd had a breakdown. So, it was a period of time after I had lots of time to consider it, to think, to reflect. And then I was able to sort of see the journey I'd sort of been on to sort of work my way through it. I was probably still going through it in some ways, but I was able to sort of really see where I'd come from.
And so then I just was just telling a friend about this is what I'd written, and I showed them and they just said, ‘you've got to do something with this … this is actually going to help people’. So I just approached the first publisher of a book I had on my desk. I looked at the book and went, oh, Routledge that'd be fine. I contacted them through the usual sort of channels and it went from there and then it became a book. Within sort of 12 months later I had a book in my hands, which was never my intention, ever my intention, but it was really just if I could help someone understand maybe what they're going through and prevent them from going through it and getting to the depths of – I look at breakdown, depression, all sorts of things that had gone on. I thought if I can just help one person, then it's just worth it. So that's sort of how it all came about. It wasn't really a set plan to write a book, it just sort of evolved into it.
JE: A reminder to everybody listening, then, you are speaking from your own experience and that obviously it can look different for everyone. As I say, we're going to unpack some of those warning signs. You mentioned there a little bit in the very start of that previous answer about what was starting to happen. Tell me a bit more about what was happening for you at that point in terms of roles and responsibilities and demands at the time that this really started to have an impact. And also, I guess that kind of leads on to the question of, you know, this gradual creep, I guess, with hindsight. In the book, you say, ‘I didn't realise I was burning out until it was too late’.
BG: Oh, absolutely. And that's what I mean when I sort of, I couldn't, I knew something wasn't right, but I didn't know what it was. There was no, I didn't have any language around it. So, part of the book, the reason is to actually give some language around it. So, for me, I mean, I was just a normal principal, running a school, it was a big school, and I loved it, and I actually miss elements of it. It was over COVID, when COVID was going on so there was a lot of added responsibilities, but I don't think that was, I think it was already happening. I think maybe COVID might have just actually accelerated a little bit.
So, I was just starting to feel, I just was always tired and I just, fatigue – and it wasn't just fatigue, I've come to realise that it wasn't just fatigue it was actually more than that. So, a sleep in or a little holiday wasn't changing it. I was just always tired. So that was one definitely symptom I look back now and think I should have recognised. Just decision making became quite – and I'd always been a very sort of decisive decision maker, ‘Yep, okay, let's do that, that, that … great, fantastic’ – and I just found sometimes I was just, feeling this sort of sense of overload and, ‘Oh I don't know, let me have a think about it’. It was like this fog sort of appeared sometimes and which was not like me at all.
I found too, which I look back now, and I think it's quite sad in that there was a bit of compassion fatigue. Like I just, I got tired of people coming to me with all their issues and solving their problems, which I'd never had before it was always part of the job. And I just found I was becoming a little bit more irritable, not myself. So that was sort of some of the things that were in that sort of school space, I suppose.
But I also found myself withdrawing socially. Like I didn't, when I was at home I didn't want to socialise, I didn't want to go out on weekends, I didn't want to see people because I was just so caught up in how I was feeling; and I was subsequently diagnosed with MDD or Major Depressive Disorder. So that was sort of part of it all. But yeah, I just, there were all these things were happening, but like I said, I couldn't understand what they were and I didn't know what they were. I had no language around it and that's sort of what I ended up sort of looking into a lot more when I was away from the school. I looked into it to sort of just try to make sense of it.
JE: Yeah, and another … and yet, and yet, another quote from the book that I want to mention – and I think a lot of other listeners will identify with this – while all that's going on, you say, ‘most people would have had no idea that this was going on. Outwardly, I was still showing up, still performing, still doing the work, but behind the scenes, burnout was slowly touching every part of my life’.
BG: Oh, without a doubt. I became quite … I mean, one of the other things was this really deep sense of anxiety. So, I would just be having panic attacks on the way to work. Once I got to work, it was like a switch went off. I'd get in the car, and I'd have a panic attack but before I walked in my house, I'd switch back off. So, I just, it was that emotional rollercoaster I couldn't quite sort of, couldn't quite control. And I just found myself, yeah, it was sort of constantly accumulating. It just felt all these things were just absolutely on top of me. And the best way to describe it is probably (and I write about it in the book), I just put a mask on. I literally felt like I was getting to school, putting a mask on, walking in, doing the job, walking out, taking the mask off. I'd get home, put the mask back on. Because there's a sense of embarrassment, I suppose, that I'm falling apart, I suppose. There's a sense of you know you're always meant to be that sort of heroic leader; you're meant to be in control and in charge and on top of everything and I didn't want to let people know that I wasn't.
So, I hid it. And that, to be honest, was probably … part of the burnout is that you actually spend more time trying to cover it and hide it; [it] takes up more energy than actually going through it, if that makes sense? Because you're constantly just trying to hide the fact that, you know, you're having these anxiety attacks. A couple of times I’d find myself just curled up in the corner of my office on the floor, just quite emotional, but I didn't understand why. I look back now and I think, ‘oh God, I should have understood what was going on’, but at the time I didn’t.
But yeah, the mask was probably the best way I can describe in terms of hiding it. And I was hiding it from my family, so my family had no idea. In fact, I didn't actually tell my mother and my siblings until the book was about to come out. My wife and children, I had sort of worked with them through it all. But I didn't tell my family until the book was coming out because, and even that was, it was an emotional moment to tell my mother; and she was just so upset with me because, yeah, I'd hid it from everybody.
JE: Yeah.
BG: Which is not good, which is not … I wouldn't recommend that to anybody because that's hard.
JE: Again, another quote from the book that I want to dig a bit deeper into, Brad. ‘Burnout is not just stress, it's a breakdown that seeps into every part of your life – physical, emotional, mental, relational and professional. In hindsight, the pattern's obvious, but when you're inside it, it feels like personal failure. Naming it helped. It allowed me to see what I was going through was not weakness or poor resilience, it was burnout. And naming it gave me the first foothold toward recovery.’ And as I say, you said you were late to recognise it. Can you remember then, perhaps you can't, but can you remember a point at which it fell into place for you in terms of recognising and importantly naming what was happening?
BG: I can tell you that, yeah, there's 2 incidences. One, I had to go to Sydney for a family, you know, major birthday celebration and I was just dreading it because I thought what if I have a panic attack? What if I fall apart? I can't, you know … but I had to go. And it was all the next day that it all happened, and I was driving home and I was driving along Military Road in Sydney, and I just started to shake, and I just completely lost it. And that was the first time in front of my wife, it was the first time she'd actually ever, that's when she was aware that something was wrong. So that was a big wake-up call. That's when I realised, and that was about June 2021, I think. That's when I realised that something was wrong. I still probably spent a bit of time denying it, but that was one moment.
The second moment, which is crazy because it was well into treatment and understanding what was going on. So, I'm on medication and my doctor – so every time he prescribes it, he's got to ring up and get permission to give me the dose I'm on whatever, whatever. And I don't normally pay attention when he's on the phone because it's just numbers and figures and things. And he kept saying, MDD, MDD, MDD. And I'm thinking, what the hell is MDD? And he got off the phone and after he’d organised it and I said, ‘what's MDD?’ And he's looked at me like I was like, I think he thought, you're stupid. He said, Major Depressive Disorder. And I went, what? He goes, that's what you've got. And he's looking like, you realised that? Haven't you realised that? And I was like, yes, but I never had it termed that way. I never heard of it like that. I mean, he probably had told me, but maybe I wasn't in the space to listen.
So that was a major – those 2 incidences. But when he said MDD, I realised that it was actually more than just burnout. It was actually now a medical condition, so to speak, that had led to, yeah, that burnout had led to that. And that was, it was really confronting. Because, you know, I never thought I'd be in that position. I never saw myself as someone in that space and here I was right in the middle of it without really realising it. So that was, that was a big wake-up call. And really got me thinking that, I actually, what I was doing at the time to get through it was the right thing to do. And I had to keep seeking help. The medication was helping and the writing from the psychologist was, yeah, certainly part of the recovery.
JE: As you said earlier, you know, if you through sharing your story, if that can help somebody else, then that's worth it. And you have … what I want to go through is you've got a really great quick exercise in the book, which I love. It's a self-check around whether something is possibly burnout or tiredness. If it's all right with you, we're going to go through each one. So, we've got a symptom and then what that looks like for fatigue or burnout. So, the first one is going to be energy levels.
BG: I suppose the energy levels come, I suppose comes to that sort of sense of being fatigued where, sometimes a weekend away or a holiday, you feel better, like you're over, like you're sort of over it. Burnout, that doesn't go away. It's just persistent. That's what I noticed. It's just, it doesn't seem to go away. You can have all the rest in the world, but you never refill the tank. It's just always feeling that low energy. Your motivation, all that sort of stuff is just really, really low and nothing seems to get through it. Like not a holiday like it would for most people. That's when you realise it's more than just, you know, fatigue. And there's, yeah, nothing you do seems to be able to get you through it.
JE: The second one's sleep. So, what's the difference between just fatigue? I don't want to say ‘just’ fatigue because fatigue on its own is bad enough, but fatigue and burnout with sleep.
BG: There are so many studies now on the importance of sleep, but for me it was almost insomnia. Like I couldn't sleep. I'd be up, my brain would just be constantly going over and I'd be going over things and stressing about things, and anxious about things that really I didn't need to be anxious about. And then you would fall asleep. And then getting up in the morning would be really hard because you are so tired and you didn't get much sleep. So, it sort of blends in with that energy level.
But it's just then you're just feeling this sense of, I don't want to go to bed. I don't want to face the world. I don't want to, I just, I can't, and even though I tried to go to bed early, I tried to do everything, but it was more that insomnia, just you're constantly thinking, overthinking things probably would be the one. And towards that time, it's really overthinking everything, like even the minor things you're overthinking and that just continues to perpetuate itself. You know maybe something didn't work or that wasn't a great response or whatever, but you just overthink things to the point where you just don't sleep. And then when you do sleep, it's like, almost you can't wake up. You can't get over it. It’s that sense of overwhelm, I suppose.
JE: This next one is, yeah, is interesting, ‘focus’, isn't it? And again, in terms of burnout, you've mentioned that about the brain fog, but also there's, you know, there's forgetfulness in there as well, isn't there?
BG: Yeah, it's very much … some people call, it could be referred to as cognitive overload. I think it was just, to me, it was just sort of that sense of, I don't know, decision fatigue maybe. Just that cloudiness where your motivation's just not there, because of the sleep, because you're constantly tired, and your motivation, that drive for you to do things just isn't there. And that was never me. Like, I was always one of these, ‘yep, yep, let's make it happen’ and energy and a bundle of joy and happiness because, and being positive because that was what you need to be as a principal. I just found I wasn't, I wasn't having that. Some days I just felt, you know, why am I bothering? You know, and that's where I think really in some ways it links to that whole, what I understand now is probably a bit of depression at the same time as the burnout.
JE: Mood then, tell me about the differences in that. So, your mood can certainly be low if it's fatigue, but how does that differ from the burnout?
BG: You constantly, like, you know you have a bad day and someone will make you cranky, but you get over it. The next day you're fine. I just found with burnout in the sense, just that sense of being irritable, just you're not finding the joy in things, you're not finding the joy in talking to people. Sometimes, people would come towards your office and you'd just, ‘my God … I’m going to lose 30 minutes of my day’, so (which I was never like that). So, it's just that whole emotional rollercoaster. And then some days you would be happy and then you'd feel guilty for being happy when, but hang on yesterday was really, really sad. Like it was just this rollercoaster of emotions that you can't actually control. Like hence going to my sister's birthday in Sydney I was dreading it, like I just had this, ‘I don't want to go, I don't want to go, I don't want to go’. And I was just so, I spent the whole time just glued to one spot worried that someone was going to see that I was falling apart. So, it's just, it's like an emotional rollercoaster that you cannot control. And that is draining in itself. Absolutely draining.
JE: Was there an element of almost detachment sometimes, of being just completely numb?
BG: Absolutely. Like, there was many times I'd be, I would go out socially and I didn't want to be there so I would just stand there and I'd almost shut down. If people came to me and spoke to me, like, ‘hello, how you going?’ I'd be responsive, but I wouldn't be seeking interaction. Because you just, it was more because you just, I was just worried that people would see through the mask. They'd see through this facade that I'd put up that everything was fine and I'm on top of the world when really underneath it I was just absolutely crumbling and I just didn't want people to see it. So, I thought if I stayed away from people, it would be easier. If I just sort of stepped back and just let it happen around me, then people wouldn't notice, hopefully wouldn't notice me, they wouldn’t notice the cracks.
JE: We've talked about motivation in terms of, fatigue might just be there might be the odd dip during difficult periods, but you pick back up again. But as you're saying, there's that complete loss of motivation and passion there. So ‘physical health’ – that's something a bit different. What kind of things were you experiencing physically then with the burnout that may be different from fatigue?
BG: Yeah, physically, at that particular point, a really big loss of appetite. I just didn't want to eat anything. Nothing seemed to really motivate me. I found, to be honest, I was probably having … whereas I had a rule I'd only have a drink on a Friday or Saturday night I found I was drinking probably most nights sometimes just to have a couple of glasses of wine, which physically doesn't do anything for you. And the headaches because you're constantly thinking, you're overthinking, you're not sleeping, you're tired. I just found that the headache sometimes would be just so pounding that you could barely get through the day.
And all that sort of, I think constant stress and all that plays a role in your physical health. Whether the cancer diagnosis I later got was related, I don't know, but I would love to do some study on stress and its relation to cancer, because I think there's an element of it in that. But for me, it was, look, it was also that whole brain fog was not healthy. So hence I was put on medication to just to, I suppose to regulate my emotions a little bit more, to regulate my brain patterns. And I was also at one point having a sleeping tablet as well, but I've sort of got, I'm not having that so much now. But definitely I'm still on the medication, which I just find just keeps that sort of that emotional level down and, also, I find it allows me to have that clarity in my mind, in my thinking.
JE: The next 2 we have talked about, so I'm not going to spend too much time on that. There's ‘recovery’, which is, you know, if it's fatigue you are able to bounce back, as you say, after a good break. But if not, then you just really, there's no getting back to normal, really, even with a lot of time off. And ‘work engagement’, we've talked about that, about feeling detached and you mentioned about, you know, resentful, indifferent, no motivation. ‘Outlook’, Outlook in general then was like a hopelessness then? Was that like almost like a paralysis?
BG: I'd always been someone that would always, was always positive and look for the joy in something. And I'd always look forward to catching up with people or just engaging conversation. But when I was going through it, was just, yeah, that sense of dread, that sense of I'm not … or a sense of helplessness. I'm not any good. I can't do anything right. I'm not making a difference. I'm a burden to people. Even though they, funny enough, they didn't know I felt I was a burden to people. And there was a couple of dark times where I thought, you know, gee, maybe people are just better off without me, that sort of thing.
So, you just, yeah, that whole sense of positivity, hope and joy just is gone. It's just not there. And that's, yeah, when you'd always been the complete opposite it's sort of hard to see it and you can almost look in a mirror and see yourself being a different person and you just don't have the motivation or the energy or the urge to sort of get yourself out of it. It's just sort of that, yeah, like probably that sense of depression probably took over. So yeah, the outlook is not positive at all. You just don't see the point in or the joy in your work, in your family, in your relationships, just the normal things in life, nothing sort of gives you that excitement that it used to.
JE: Well, that's the final one – ‘relationships’ and if you’re fatigued, you might, you know, you might step back a little, you might be a bit withdrawn, but burnout looks a lot different, doesn't it?
BG: Yeah, my wife is an angel. She, we've talked about this a lot. She feels I was, yeah, I became very detached. And she didn't quite understand. She knew something wasn't right, but once again we didn't have language for it. But yeah, I would be quite detached. So, she said, you know, we would drive to the coast like 2 hours and she said, you wouldn't even speak. She said, you just be in your own head. And going out to do things with family and friends just was something that just used to make me quite overwhelmed. And a lot of people now, in hindsight, once I started to tell them what was happening and the book, they've all gone, yeah, we actually, we knew something wasn't right, but we didn't want to bother you. We didn't know what it was. You were talking about it, so we thought you must have been okay. So, where I thought I was covering it well, in hindsight, I think I probably wasn't and people probably were too afraid to ask me how I was going.
But yeah, the relationships did suffer. I would definitely … and part of the recovery is having to rebuild some of that. And because of that sense of fear of If you tell people they're going to think you're crazy and you feel you might get rejected and they won't understand and I've come to realise that no, that's true. The more you talk about it, the more you share it, I think the better it is; it helps others and helps yourself.
JE: So we've gone through those sort of 10 symptoms there. And again, I'd really recommend you have a look at the book. I'll pop a link in the transcript to this podcast at teachermagazine.com. There are tons of, so much useful stuff in there. As you say, Brad, if listeners out there have answers that were leaning mostly towards the ‘burnout’ column, then that's definitely a signal worth listening to as they could be in the early stages of burnout, or indeed they could already be there. But the next point you make is the good news is you're not alone. Tell me about the supports that have helped you then and your recovery and also what things are like now for you.
BG: Well, definitely my first point of call was my GP. So, after the Sydney Military Road thing where I broke down, my wife said, ‘you're going to the doctors, you're absolutely going to the doctor’. And I knew my GP well, he'd been my GP for a number of years and he was amazing. So he really got me, sort of ran a whole pile of tests and made me go and see a psychologist and all that sort of stuff. So he was really definitely a really important part of it.
Definitely, when I was prepared to admit that things weren't right, and I was understanding it through the psychologist. So, I think a psychologist – seeking that professional help – was really good. He really made me understand because I remember my first words were to him, ‘I'm broken and I don't know how to fix myself’. And he said, he said … and then it was subsequent sessions, he made me realise that not all of me was broken. Parts of me were broken, but some of it wasn't. So, we looked at what wasn't broken and then, okay, let's fix what is broken. So, I think getting professional help was a definite, definite support. And definitely writing about it, journaling about it was good.
I had a, I did have, once I was sort of admitted what was happening, I had a couple of really close, close sort of mentors that I'd sort of shared it with and 2 in particular were, they would, yeah, they would be instrumental. So, once I'd sort of opened up to them that this is what was happening, they were amazing. So that sense of peer support, I think, was really important, having that support system around you.
And your family, obviously, my wife and my children knew, and they were incredible. I don't know how my wife's still with me, to be honest, but she was amazing. And I think, too, for me, it was really just, and I sort of wrote about it in the book, was really just, okay, recognising that I had a problem. That was the first thing, the whole sense of recognition, something's not right. And then it was really a matter of, I suppose, researching it, looking into it, like, what does this mean? What actually is this? So really trying to understand what was happening, so really reflecting on it for me.
And then it was that sense of, I don't know, realignment, like, what is important to me? And just really working out that well, family is important to me, my work is important to me, my friends are important to me. So really, really realigning what my values were and what I needed to do to get back to being that person. And I talk about realignment and in a way, moving out of being a principal was part of it. Writing the book was part of that sort of realignment and sort of readjusting myself. Taking care of myself a lot better, going to the gym, going walking. All those sorts of … eating healthily. So, all those sorts of real practical steps were part of that reinvention of me.
So, yeah look at the moment I'm going well. I'm doing a bit of work as a leadership coach myself, which I really enjoy. Working with a lot of principal groups, which has been great. Doing a bit of presenting now on the topic. So, talking to a principal association next week about it. I was in Perth last week talking to the WA principals about principal wellbeing, burnout, and just sort of sharing my story, which I never thought I would. I never thought I'd share it, but just trying to get people to understand what it is and maybe see elements of it in themselves. But more importantly, what are some of the things they can do to get through it, to recover?
And I can base it on personal, you know, my own personal journey, but also what I've learned along the way of researching the book and things like that. So, I'm in a good space, but it is a working recovery. I'm still on the medication. I still see my GP regularly, not so much the psychologist now, but I know that if I needed to, I would. But yeah, I think just … and I think just sharing it more with people has helped because now I don't feel that sense of fear. I don't feel that sense of shame. I'm not afraid to talk about it because I think if that helps one person, then it was worth it. And that's sort of hopefully what I'm doing at the moment.
JE: Yeah, absolutely. A reminder this is a podcast special to coincide actually with R U OK? Day here in Australia, which is an annual, National Day of Action. It's held on the 2nd Thursday in September and it's a reminder for Australians to check in with others and ask, ‘are you OK?’ And I just want to let listeners know, you know, you don't have to be an expert to ask that, but there is some preparation that the R U OK? Day national charity recommend you do do before starting that conversation. So, head to their website – there's loads of resources on there, including for workplaces, for educators with students from the early years, right through to tertiary, and for community members. On that website then, which is ruok.org.au you'll also find more on the 4 simple steps in having that conversation with someone. That's ask, listen, encourage action and check in. We've done a podcast on that actually and I'll pop a link in there. There's information on support services and where to find help. Brad, again, thank you so much for sharing your personal experience and for writing about that in such a candid and open way in the book. If there's a message you kind of want listeners to take away from our chat today, then, what would that be?
BG: I think it's don't be afraid to speak up, don't be afraid to share your story, to open up to people, because by doing that I think you're inviting someone else to do it. I think there's lots of people out there who are still trying to maybe hide where they're at with their mental health. And I think the more we can talk about it and normalise some of this, then I think it's better for everybody. So yeah, probably, yeah, don't be afraid to speak up and seek help for sure. It's the best thing I ever did.
A reminder that if you or anyone you know needs help, in Australia you can call Lifeline on 13 11 14.
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Teacher Magazine is published by the Australian Council for Educational Research.
